From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Received: by 2002:a6b:86a0:: with SMTP id q32-v6mr2487026ioi.51.1524110490710; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 21:01:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a9d:554a:: with SMTP id h10-v6mr292581oti.5.1524110490468; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 21:01:30 -0700 (PDT) Path: eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!aioe.org!feeder.usenetexpress.com!feeder-in1.iad1.usenetexpress.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!k65-v6no136296ita.0!news-out.google.com!15-v6ni245itg.0!nntp.google.com!f63-v6no137595itc.0!postnews.google.com!glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 21:01:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com; posting-host=47.185.233.194; posting-account=zwxLlwoAAAChLBU7oraRzNDnqQYkYbpo NNTP-Posting-Host: 47.185.233.194 References: <1c73f159-eae4-4ae7-a348-03964b007197@googlegroups.com> <06a8980d-21bb-4067-b22d-7d1f89342948@googlegroups.com> <19c7a205-0a82-477b-9254-01af786f467e@googlegroups.com> User-Agent: G2/1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <06adad02-803a-4dc7-b5d8-f9a5d8faa3ab@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: How to get Ada to ?cross the chasm?? From: "Dan'l Miller" Injection-Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 04:01:30 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Received-Bytes: 4769 X-Received-Body-CRC: 122425518 Xref: reader02.eternal-september.org comp.lang.ada:51625 Date: 2018-04-18T21:01:30-07:00 List-Id: On Wednesday, April 18, 2018 at 4:03:52 PM UTC-5, Niklas Holsti wrote: > > On Wednesday, 18 April 2018 15:31:26 UTC+1, Dan'l Miller wrote: > >> I think that the real problem with AdaCore is the lack of sub-$1000 > >> non-GPL annual license for mass-market operating systems on > >> mass-market ISAs, such as Windows, MacOS, Android, and iOS. >=20 > Janus/Ada and some versions of ObjectAda are or were in that range, but= =20 > have not, I believe, sold in "mass-market" numbers. Some were toy compilers that accompanied books on Ada. Others thought that= the following Ada spec was =E2=80=9Csupporting=E2=80=9D Ada on Windows: f= orcing Ada to look verbatim like C for Win32. Not just any old C conventio= ns & idioms, but Microsoft's really obnoxious C conventions & idioms of tha= t era. https://unzip-ada.sourceforge.io/za_html/win32__ads.htm No, supporting Ada on Windows (UWP and WPF), Android SDK, iOS CocoaTouch, a= nd MacOS Cocoa mass-market OSes/frameworks/ISAs would look a lot more like = RemObjects in doing via their Elements Compiler confederation for Swift on = Windows, Swift on Android, Java on iOS, Java on Windows, C# on Android JVM,= C# on processor-native machine code on Android, C# on processor-native mac= hine code on Windows, C# on processor-native machine code on iOS & on MacOS= and the corresponding mass-market ISAs. (And gee, what a shame that RemOb= jects came from the Borland/Embarcadero ObjectPascal heritage instead from = the Ada heritage; it would have been quite nice to see Ada in the Elements = Compiler confederation instead of or in addition to ObjectPascal.) https://docs.ElementsCompiler.com The gargantuan (extraordinarily-useful) object model below is what supporti= ng Microsoft Windows 10 looks like nowadays, such as supported by not only = Microsoft toolchain & languages, but also by RemObjects' {Swift, Java, Obje= ctPascal}, and increasingly the new Ada-WinRT and WinRT-Rust. But any Ada = compilers that =E2=80=9Csupport=E2=80=9D Microsoft OSes out of the box are = stuck in the Win32 era not much different than as shown in that cruel Ada s= pec above. What is especially sad is that Microsoft has gone to great leng= ths over the past 1.5 decades to make this rich object library language agn= ostic, designed for language projections to feel native in each language=E2= =80=94which has worked out especially well for C#, F# (a sibling of OCaml),= Visual Basic, and the emerging C++/WinRT, Ada-WinRT, and WinRT-Rust (but w= hich didn't work out nearly so well for the grafted-on foreign-feeling /CX = and /CLI =E2=80=9Cdivided by=E2=80=9D sublanguages in C++/CX and C++/CLI, h= ence why C++/WinRT is on a juggernaut to replace /CX and /CLI as we speak). https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/uwp/api Android SDK, iOS CocoaTouch, and MacOS Cocoa of course each have their own = analogous rich object model that Ada is shut out of currently and for the f= oreseeable future. =E2=80=9CBatteries included=E2=80=9D is not the mantra= of any Ada compiler for targeting Windows 10 UWP, Windows 10 WPF, Android = SDK, iOS CocoaTouch, or MacOS Cocoa. Until Ada-WinRT came along in recent = days, Ada compiler vendors at most provided a thin wrapper around the depre= cated Win32; no sane person would pay $1000 per year for =E2=80=A2that=E2= =80=A2.