From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD, FREEMAIL_FROM autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Received: by 2002:a6b:ef12:: with SMTP id k18-v6mr8132001ioh.31.1531082627224; Sun, 08 Jul 2018 13:43:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:aca:c744:: with SMTP id x65-v6mr4225983oif.2.1531082626968; Sun, 08 Jul 2018 13:43:46 -0700 (PDT) Path: eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!news.uzoreto.com!newsreader5.netcologne.de!news.netcologne.de!peer02.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer02.am4!peer.am4.highwinds-media.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!g2-v6no2780923itf.0!news-out.google.com!z3-v6ni5836iti.0!nntp.google.com!g2-v6no2780915itf.0!postnews.google.com!glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 13:43:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1ab5db5c-7892-40a8-ae36-ca1ec1168768@googlegroups.com> Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com; posting-host=213.108.152.51; posting-account=bMuEOQoAAACUUr_ghL3RBIi5neBZ5w_S NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.108.152.51 References: <856189aa-fa00-4960-929e-174f352310ad@googlegroups.com> <2718c8d4-5f35-4fd8-a1aa-1e60069a7a5d@googlegroups.com> <39fce60c-9f56-42fb-b679-fa08810b00ee@googlegroups.com> <3701bf07-89a5-4cb0-a704-5aebb589ca79@googlegroups.com> <2f5e4ce0-94e8-4b94-9da7-045ec90a9b22@googlegroups.com> <9bb99fb4-b9c7-4516-97b5-da41466e96be@googlegroups.com> <1162d6bf-c226-4089-ae2e-870c7da9c80f@googlegroups.com> <2f5399b4-518b-4a2e-9941-2ae267d51309@googlegroups.com> <1ab5db5c-7892-40a8-ae36-ca1ec1168768@googlegroups.com> User-Agent: G2/1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3a162a7e-4e87-4fb5-9b39-423811271ef3@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Teaching C/C++ from Ada perspective? From: Maciej Sobczak Injection-Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2018 20:43:47 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Received-Bytes: 6038 X-Received-Body-CRC: 587216634 Xref: reader02.eternal-september.org comp.lang.ada:53735 Date: 2018-07-08T13:43:46-07:00 List-Id: > What an incredibly jaw-dropping disregard of history. On the other hand, declaring that the leading (and in some sense the only) = Ada compiler is broken and that the only Ada compiler worth its name is R10= 00 is a jaw-dropping disregard of the present. > It is =E2=80=A2as if=E2=80=A2 you didn't live through the 1980s [...] you= didn't live in the USA I didn't. And I don't feel the slightest regret for this. Let me get it straight: You might consider C to be an ultimate disaster, especially when regarded f= rom the Steelman perspective. But if instead of writing it by hand you gene= rate it by means of model-based design and/or formal methods, then the requ= irements of Steelman are irrelevant and the language, combined with its str= aightforward traceability to object code [*] and the availability on all mo= dern hardware [*], might be as well be your best bet (literally). [*] This is a certification must-have in safety-critical systems. Don't sel= l me the tech that makes it any more difficult. [**] I think about embedded systems more than PCs. This example shows that there is more than one way to practice the art of s= oftware engineering and I don't think that any single set of requirements, = written some 40 years ago, can cut it for absolutely everybody, in every po= ssible context. This is the reason why, even at the risk of being condemned= by your church, I official disregard Steelman as the only valid benchmark = for measuring the usefulness of programming languages *today*. Consistently, even though I am genuinely impressed by your historical knowl= edge, I disregard it, too, as the only valid metric for measuring what is t= he proper technology choice *today*. This thread is already much longer tha= n it was useful for anybody reading it and since I don't see any hope of fi= nding any common ground, I can only agree to disagree. > AT&T-world's government-lobbying planet was bigger than DoD-world's gove= rnment-lobbying planet in the competition of =E2=80=A2=E2=80=A2who was ecli= psing whom=E2=80=A2=E2=80=A2 This is actually the kind of "natural selection" I was referring to. > =E2=80=A1 C++ was accreted, not designed. In the same manner, only Ada 83 was designed. Ada 95, Ada 2005 and Ada 2012= were accreted. Some of the features were openly admitted to be borrowed fr= om C++. > > And, BTW, we were supposed to help the OP, who was asked to teach C++. >=20 > Oh, we are helping him very very much. We are showing him in its full gl= ory what a mess C++ is. Nope. You did not show *any* single code example, in any language. I have p= resented code snippets in both languages to demonstrate my arguments. > Any good teacher of C++ looking at all the replies in this thread Anybody who was about to consider Ada and has read that: - the leading Ada compiler is broken, - the only Ada compiler worth its name is archaic and does not support any = of the features that supposedly make Ada competitive today - one needs 6M$ to get it - or one needs to buy the compiler from some other company that does not ev= en bother to inform the public that they sell it - and so on... (because this is all that I have "learned" in this thread) will run away from Ada as fast as they can. There is absolutely no chance y= ou can ever convince anybody to switch to Ada if the only thing you have on= offer is the unprecedented hatred towards C++ and a point of view that see= mingly got stuck several decades ago. With arguments like above, this threa= d has become the parody of Ada advocacy. Actually, I believe that you are m= aking a substantial damage to Ada with that kind of arguments. I'm afraid y= ou don't realize this. > =E2=80=9CGee, I really must help my students avoid those morasses in C++.= =E2=80=9D You did not show any morasses in C++. You have mentioned some, but I have d= emonstrated they exist in Ada, too. How is this going to help? I propose to make this discussion actually concrete [***] or close it. [***] In short: show the code. --=20 Maciej Sobczak * http://www.inspirel.com