From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD, FREEMAIL_FROM autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Received: by 2002:a0c:f38d:: with SMTP id i13mr1064636qvk.187.1587100479740; Thu, 16 Apr 2020 22:14:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a4a:a5d0:: with SMTP id k16mr1178222oom.41.1587100479426; Thu, 16 Apr 2020 22:14:39 -0700 (PDT) Path: eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!feeder1.feed.usenet.farm!feed.usenet.farm!feeder.usenetexpress.com!tr1.iad1.usenetexpress.com!border1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 22:14:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4faaddd0-cc31-43e5-bd9e-fa0dded08778@googlegroups.com> Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=2601:18f:982:19b0:2b2:dcfe:2ee3:7563; posting-account=3pYsyQoAAACcI-ym7XtMOI2PDU8gRZS5 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2601:18f:982:19b0:2b2:dcfe:2ee3:7563 References: <87muca3vgd.fsf@nightsong.com> <57d49047-0a61-4d13-8822-d004732a3acc@googlegroups.com> <3b1b248b-43d0-4762-b1f5-1c5460d24c8b@googlegroups.com> <5e222e6c-7afe-4349-ac66-d9b78ca40ec6@googlegroups.com> <27b11294-d628-4118-8328-a4a9a3946937@googlegroups.com> <80bcdfd1-b1e5-4ebf-aa8a-4beaba5ec3c2@googlegroups.com> <60e61003-409d-4bd5-9784-8ddad5942934@googlegroups.com> <4faaddd0-cc31-43e5-bd9e-fa0dded08778@googlegroups.com> User-Agent: G2/1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <41d010aa-7408-49d7-bc0a-7c346222f862@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Beginning Ada Programming, by Andrew T. Shvets (2020) From: Andrew Shvets Injection-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 05:14:39 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Xref: reader01.eternal-september.org comp.lang.ada:58390 Date: 2020-04-16T22:14:39-07:00 List-Id: On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 12:39:27 PM UTC-5, Optikos wrote: > On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 10:50:40 AM UTC-6, Lucretia wrote: > > On Tuesday, 3 December 2019 16:26:55 UTC, Optikos wrote: > >=20 > > > > That's not what I'm saying at all! > > > >=20 > > > > I'm saying to get someone used to the language, there is no problem= with starting them off with the > > > > ready defined types, but explaining ranges a little later on, liter= ally, within pages of themselves. > > >=20 > > > Oh, then I agree with AdaMagica wholeheartedly if restricted to only = learning a new language. I once worked for a long-time Fortran programmer = who self-taught himself C; every line of code that he wrote was 110% pure F= ortran-think without any resemblance (other than surface syntax) to anythin= g more modern: =20 > >=20 > > ...aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand you missed my point entirely. I said to introduce = them to typing concepts after > > getting them used to the very basics, i.e. first few simple programs ad= ding numbers and printing them > > out, how the build using the compiler, then handle types and explaining= how they're different to > > something like typedef in C. >=20 > Although I don't have a copy of any of Andrew Shvets books to see how qui= ckly he leaves the rudimentary level of hello-world dip-your-toe-in-the-wat= er content, I took AdaMagica's criticism of the 1st edition as lingering fa= r far far too long in the predefined hello-world dip-toe-in-water stage. >=20 > IMHO, the best pedagogical books always have a chapter 0 (after the Prefa= ce) that provides all the hello-world dip-toe-in-water rudimentary this-isn= 't-scary this-is-actually-accessible content, which would provide also the = crash-course whirlwind-handwaving answer to the question of =E2=80=9Cgee, h= ow do I actually minimally get this to compile on commonplace compilers and= commonplace operating systems=E2=80=9D. But then Chapter 1 introduces the= topic in the topic's native terms instead of as a play-baby toy. Then bac= k on say Chapter 11 every detail of the nuances of subtleties of how to mak= e the build system sit up and sing for its supper can be introduced in thei= r full glory, because it is so non-standard and vendor/OS dependent. >=20 > Paul Rubin, btw, I find Alan Burns's & Andy Wellings's 512-page _Analysab= le Real-Time Systems Programmed in Ada_ (2016; self-published) to be an exe= mplary book that truly shows off Ada's strong points in full Ada-think, but= it is aimed at a different sector of the market than Schvet's introductory= /general book, I suspect. Well, yes. In the first chapter, I explicitly state that this book will ge= ntly guide you into Ada and do a lot of hand-holding, that was the goal of = the book. The appendix details how you can install the compiler from AdaCo= re (which is very easy).