From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Received: by 2002:ac8:2783:: with SMTP id w3mr2062290qtw.192.1575394766066; Tue, 03 Dec 2019 09:39:26 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:236a:: with SMTP id r10mr3765374oth.329.1575394765759; Tue, 03 Dec 2019 09:39:25 -0800 (PST) Path: eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!aioe.org!peer02.am4!peer.am4.highwinds-media.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!g89no1906631qtd.0!news-out.google.com!w29ni93qtc.0!nntp.google.com!g89no1906620qtd.0!postnews.google.com!glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 09:39:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <60e61003-409d-4bd5-9784-8ddad5942934@googlegroups.com> Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com; posting-host=47.185.234.173; posting-account=zwxLlwoAAAChLBU7oraRzNDnqQYkYbpo NNTP-Posting-Host: 47.185.234.173 References: <87muca3vgd.fsf@nightsong.com> <57d49047-0a61-4d13-8822-d004732a3acc@googlegroups.com> <3b1b248b-43d0-4762-b1f5-1c5460d24c8b@googlegroups.com> <5e222e6c-7afe-4349-ac66-d9b78ca40ec6@googlegroups.com> <27b11294-d628-4118-8328-a4a9a3946937@googlegroups.com> <80bcdfd1-b1e5-4ebf-aa8a-4beaba5ec3c2@googlegroups.com> <60e61003-409d-4bd5-9784-8ddad5942934@googlegroups.com> User-Agent: G2/1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <4faaddd0-cc31-43e5-bd9e-fa0dded08778@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Beginning Ada Programming, by Andrew T. Shvets (2020) From: Optikos Injection-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 17:39:26 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Received-Bytes: 4344 X-Received-Body-CRC: 2489567930 Xref: reader01.eternal-september.org comp.lang.ada:57644 Date: 2019-12-03T09:39:25-08:00 List-Id: On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 10:50:40 AM UTC-6, Lucretia wrote: > On Tuesday, 3 December 2019 16:26:55 UTC, Optikos wrote: >=20 > > > That's not what I'm saying at all! > > >=20 > > > I'm saying to get someone used to the language, there is no problem w= ith starting them off with the > > > ready defined types, but explaining ranges a little later on, literal= ly, within pages of themselves. > >=20 > > Oh, then I agree with AdaMagica wholeheartedly if restricted to only le= arning a new language. I once worked for a long-time Fortran programmer wh= o self-taught himself C; every line of code that he wrote was 110% pure For= tran-think without any resemblance (other than surface syntax) to anything = more modern: =20 >=20 > ...aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand you missed my point entirely. I said to introduce th= em to typing concepts after > getting them used to the very basics, i.e. first few simple programs addi= ng numbers and printing them > out, how the build using the compiler, then handle types and explaining h= ow they're different to > something like typedef in C. Although I don't have a copy of any of Andrew Shvets books to see how quick= ly he leaves the rudimentary level of hello-world dip-your-toe-in-the-water= content, I took AdaMagica's criticism of the 1st edition as lingering far = far far too long in the predefined hello-world dip-toe-in-water stage. IMHO, the best pedagogical books always have a chapter 0 (after the Preface= ) that provides all the hello-world dip-toe-in-water rudimentary this-isn't= -scary this-is-actually-accessible content, which would provide also the cr= ash-course whirlwind-handwaving answer to the question of =E2=80=9Cgee, how= do I actually minimally get this to compile on commonplace compilers and c= ommonplace operating systems=E2=80=9D. But then Chapter 1 introduces the t= opic in the topic's native terms instead of as a play-baby toy. Then back = on say Chapter 11 every detail of the nuances of subtleties of how to make = the build system sit up and sing for its supper can be introduced in their = full glory, because it is so non-standard and vendor/OS dependent. Paul Rubin, btw, I find Alan Burns's & Andy Wellings's 512-page _Analysable= Real-Time Systems Programmed in Ada_ (2016; self-published) to be an exemp= lary book that truly shows off Ada's strong points in full Ada-think, but i= t is aimed at a different sector of the market than Schvet's introductory/g= eneral book, I suspect.