From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:2193:: with SMTP id g19mr6050969qka.317.1575390414015; Tue, 03 Dec 2019 08:26:54 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:a9d:51ca:: with SMTP id d10mr3673912oth.76.1575390413519; Tue, 03 Dec 2019 08:26:53 -0800 (PST) Path: eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!news.uzoreto.com!feeder5.feed.usenet.farm!feed.usenet.farm!feeder.usenetexpress.com!tr3.iad1.usenetexpress.com!border1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!g89no1725510qtd.0!news-out.google.com!w29ni89qtc.0!nntp.google.com!g89no1725495qtd.0!postnews.google.com!glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 08:26:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com; posting-host=47.185.234.173; posting-account=zwxLlwoAAAChLBU7oraRzNDnqQYkYbpo NNTP-Posting-Host: 47.185.234.173 References: <87muca3vgd.fsf@nightsong.com> <57d49047-0a61-4d13-8822-d004732a3acc@googlegroups.com> <3b1b248b-43d0-4762-b1f5-1c5460d24c8b@googlegroups.com> <5e222e6c-7afe-4349-ac66-d9b78ca40ec6@googlegroups.com> <27b11294-d628-4118-8328-a4a9a3946937@googlegroups.com> User-Agent: G2/1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <80bcdfd1-b1e5-4ebf-aa8a-4beaba5ec3c2@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Beginning Ada Programming, by Andrew T. Shvets (2020) From: Optikos Injection-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 16:26:54 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Xref: reader01.eternal-september.org comp.lang.ada:57639 Date: 2019-12-03T08:26:53-08:00 List-Id: On Tuesday, December 3, 2019 at 10:06:58 AM UTC-6, Lucretia wrote: > On Tuesday, 3 December 2019 15:29:15 UTC, Optikos wrote: >=20 > > There is a wise middle ground between the 2 extremes between what you &= AdaMagica are saying. > >=20 > > strict) AdaMagica appears to be saying that rock-solid analysis of find= ing the upper & lower bounds of the integer's range (or fixed or floating p= oint or BCD for that matter) is of crucial insight & importance to understa= nding the problem. > >=20 > > loose) You appear to be saying that for rapid prototyping that that dee= p analysis can be postponed. >=20 > That's not what I'm saying at all! >=20 > I'm saying to get someone used to the language, there is no problem with = starting them off with the > ready defined types, but explaining ranges a little later on, literally, = within pages of themselves. Oh, then I agree with AdaMagica wholeheartedly if restricted to only learni= ng a new language. I once worked for a long-time Fortran programmer who se= lf-taught himself C; every line of code that he wrote was 110% pure Fortran= -think without any resemblance (other than surface syntax) to anything more= modern: PL/I, C, Ada, Pascal. Just about the only way that it was C code= beyond force-fitting his thinking into C syntax minimally was that he even= tually refrained from keeping the caps-lock key on all the time for all ide= ntifiers. Full immersion in the new language's own better way of thinking = from the very start is the only productive way to learn a new programming l= anguage. Learning Ada the way that you describe is likely to perpetuate C-= think or C++-think or Python-think in Ada, due to the new learner falsely b= elieving =E2=80=9CI got this!=E2=80=9D far far too soon. Learning a new programming language needs to have exciting revelatory =E2= =80=9Coh, wow! I've never been able to do =E2=80=A2that=E2=80=A2 before in= any prior language!=E2=80=9D moments early on to quell ho-hum boredom. Th= is ho-hum boredom is caused by nearly all the mainstream programming langua= ges (with the exception of ML family) being minor variations on Algol 60's = syntax and relatively minor extensions of Algol 60's control-flow construct= s, so differentiating the newly-learned language from all other Algol60-esq= ue fellow languages ASAP is crucial. Burying the revelatory differences la= ter in the book does a mind-numbing disservice to the reader by falsely lul= ling the reader into thinking Ada's key contributions are in syntax & beaut= y, not in semantic-meaning expressivity & crisp well-ordered-mind thinking.