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* USE clauses
@ 1986-08-06  2:08 "David S. Bakin"
  1986-08-07  1:09 ` alden%jade
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: "David S. Bakin" @ 1986-08-06  2:08 UTC (permalink / raw)


OK, this is just to let you know that the mail is piling up around here
on my question on use-clauses, with the current sentiment being not to use
them at all.  I'll summarize next week, but in the meantime, anyone who
sends me mail saying not to use use-clauses at all please include a
description of how you access user-defined operators.  Not how you should,
how you actually do.

By the way, I don't buy the arguments about code with use-clauses being
harder to read.  1)  You should be using an interactive tool to help you
understand your code (more about this in a later message, if anyone jumps
at the bait)  2)  I find it harder to read code that stretches across the
page and down across pages because of full qualification.

Anyway, keep those cards and letters coming, folks!

(For those of you who DO use use-clauses, please let me know how your
compiler fares with them!  At least one compiler spec sheet that I've
seen says it "processes withed packages at several thousand lines per
minute" which of course implies that it takes time to scan withed
packages instead of just having direct access in a library.  Does anyone
use a compiler whose time-to-compile grows based on the size of the
withed and/or used context?  And if so, how does it affect your programming
style?)

-- Dave (Bakin -at mit-multics)

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: USE clauses
  1986-08-06  2:08 USE clauses "David S. Bakin"
@ 1986-08-07  1:09 ` alden%jade
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: alden%jade @ 1986-08-07  1:09 UTC (permalink / raw)


David,

You can access operators with prefix notation and dot (.) notation with the 
package name.


	my_var := my_package."+"(op1,op2);

Also, the arguement for using use based on long names is still weak.  If
you have a problem with long package names then use RENAMES, again as local
to the block affected as possible.  Renames can be used to abrivate the
package name or to abreviate the package and operation combination.

The arguement for tools to analyze code is a good one.  To date, the only good
tool to do this kind of analysis is on the Rational R1000 computer.  Have 
you got $750,000.00 to give me so that I can use the tool?

	... Tony Alden
            TRW

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* use clauses
  2021-04-24  1:04                 ` Randy Brukardt
@ 2022-04-12 23:25                   ` Thomas
  2022-04-13  1:05                     ` Randy Brukardt
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Thomas @ 2022-04-12 23:25 UTC (permalink / raw)


In article <s5vqq9$lou$1@franka.jacob-sparre.dk>,
 "Randy Brukardt" <randy@rrsoftware.com> wrote:

> For me, a naming scheme that discourages the use of (package) use clauses is 
> a bonus. (Such a scheme makes it easier to avoid use clauses.)

I agree to avoid use clauses.

(I personally prefer Lists.List, like Vincent Marciante -
i like Ada.Containers.* naming :-) )


> I personally 
> only use "use type" in new code (there's tons of old code for which that 
> doesn't work, of course, but that doesn't change the principle).

what do you think about:
- "use all type" clauses?
- List.Clear? (could you remember me how you call that, please?)
- List.Clear does work only if List is tagged?

-- 
RAPID maintainer
http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/rapid/

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: use clauses
  2022-04-12 23:25                   ` use clauses Thomas
@ 2022-04-13  1:05                     ` Randy Brukardt
  2022-04-14  2:51                       ` 25.BX944
  2022-04-19  3:53                       ` Thomas
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Randy Brukardt @ 2022-04-13  1:05 UTC (permalink / raw)


"Thomas" <fantome.forums.tDeContes@free.fr.invalid> wrote in message 
news:62560a6b$0$18724$426a74cc@news.free.fr...
> In article <s5vqq9$lou$1@franka.jacob-sparre.dk>,
> "Randy Brukardt" <randy@rrsoftware.com> wrote:
>
>> For me, a naming scheme that discourages the use of (package) use clauses 
>> is
>> a bonus. (Such a scheme makes it easier to avoid use clauses.)
>
> I agree to avoid use clauses.
>
> (I personally prefer Lists.List, like Vincent Marciante -
> i like Ada.Containers.* naming :-) )
>
>
>> I personally
>> only use "use type" in new code (there's tons of old code for which that
>> doesn't work, of course, but that doesn't change the principle).
>
> what do you think about:
> - "use all type" clauses?

This is OK; I don't use them mainly because I only use features implemented 
in Janus/Ada, and "use all type" is not yet implemented there.

The fundamental problem with "use" is that it makes everything visible, and 
then deals with conflicts by making those things invisible again. That's not 
problem for overloadable primitive operations, since the profile is included 
and conflicts only occur when someone has made a lousy design choice 
(creating a routine with the same name and profile as a primitive) [Most 
such conflicts come from maintenance when some existing routine is moved to 
be primitive; in such cases, the original routine simply should be removed.] 
Since "use all type" only works on overloadable primitives (and things that 
work rather like primitives), it's fairly safe. One could make an argument 
that primitive operations should always be visible when the type is (that's 
not the Ada rule, but argubly it would work better in most circumstances) --  
and you should always know to look at primitives anyway when trying to find 
something..

> - List.Clear? (could you remember me how you call that, please?)

For tagged types, you can use prefix notation, so "My_List.Clear" is the 
easiest. With "use all type List", you can write Clear(My_List). If your 
objects have well-choosen names, it's not really needed to have the type 
around for such operations, even when use clauses are in place. Thus, 
"Clear", not "Clear_List", and that works well even when someone uses 
everything in sight (of course, they may have a hard time finding where 
Clear is defined when debugging, but that's their choice).

> - List.Clear does work only if List is tagged?

Right. There are a number of semantic issues for untagged types, the main 
ones having to do with implicit dereference (which occurs in this notation, 
as in any other selected_component notation). If you have a prefix of an 
access type, it gets very messy to determine which dereference is which. And 
just allowing composite types doesn't work well either: a private type that 
is completed with an access type would *lose* operations when it had full 
visibility -- that seems pretty weird.

It originally got limited to tagged types as that was easy to do and didn't 
have semantic issues. We were going to look at generalizing the prefix 
notation again (several people asked about it), but no one made a concrete 
proposal and it never went anywhere for Ada 2022.

                         Randy.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: use clauses
  2022-04-13  1:05                     ` Randy Brukardt
@ 2022-04-14  2:51                       ` 25.BX944
  2022-04-14  6:49                         ` Emmanuel Briot
  2022-04-15  5:33                         ` Doctor Who
  2022-04-19  3:53                       ` Thomas
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: 25.BX944 @ 2022-04-14  2:51 UTC (permalink / raw)


After fiddling around with ADA for awhile, I have concluded
that it's Just Not Worth It - too fiddly, TOO obsessed with
exact types and such. While there are SOME few justifications
for that, well, it's just pretty much UNUSABLE. If I need to
use an "old" language, well, FORTRAN is easier to deal with
and I actually *like* Pascal (I write lots of stuff in
Lazarus/FPC even today). And, of course, 'C' ...

So, unless you are somehow OBLIGATED, use something,
anything, but ADA.

Sorry, not what you wanted to hear, but ......

I will now de-subscribe.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: use clauses
  2022-04-14  2:51                       ` 25.BX944
@ 2022-04-14  6:49                         ` Emmanuel Briot
  2022-04-15  5:33                         ` Doctor Who
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Emmanuel Briot @ 2022-04-14  6:49 UTC (permalink / raw)


On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 4:51:10 AM UTC+2, 25.BX944 wrote:
> So, unless you are somehow OBLIGATED, use something, 
> anything, but ADA. 

I fully understand. Can I recommend that you try Whitespace (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace_(programming_language)) or Basic as your language of choice ? They should not be as bothersome as Ada. Of course, the surprises come at run time !

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: use clauses
  2022-04-14  2:51                       ` 25.BX944
  2022-04-14  6:49                         ` Emmanuel Briot
@ 2022-04-15  5:33                         ` Doctor Who
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Doctor Who @ 2022-04-15  5:33 UTC (permalink / raw)


On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 22:51:01 -0400, "25.BX944" <25BZ494@nada.net>
wrote:

>After fiddling around with ADA for awhile, I have concluded
>that it's Just Not Worth It - too fiddly, TOO obsessed with
>exact types and such. While there are SOME few justifications
>for that, well, it's just pretty much UNUSABLE. If I need to
>use an "old" language, well, FORTRAN is easier to deal with
>and I actually *like* Pascal (I write lots of stuff in
>Lazarus/FPC even today). And, of course, 'C' ...
>
>So, unless you are somehow OBLIGATED, use something,
>anything, but ADA.
>
>Sorry, not what you wanted to hear, but ......
>
>I will now de-subscribe.

you are not a programmer.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: use clauses
  2022-04-13  1:05                     ` Randy Brukardt
  2022-04-14  2:51                       ` 25.BX944
@ 2022-04-19  3:53                       ` Thomas
  2022-04-19  5:59                         ` Randy Brukardt
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Thomas @ 2022-04-19  3:53 UTC (permalink / raw)


In article <t357jt$v7n$1@dont-email.me>,
 "Randy Brukardt" <randy@rrsoftware.com> wrote:

> "Thomas" <fantome.forums.tDeContes@free.fr.invalid> wrote in message 
> news:62560a6b$0$18724$426a74cc@news.free.fr...
> > In article <s5vqq9$lou$1@franka.jacob-sparre.dk>,
> > "Randy Brukardt" <randy@rrsoftware.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I personally
> >> only use "use type" in new code (there's tons of old code for which that
> >> doesn't work, of course, but that doesn't change the principle).
> >
> > what do you think about:
> > - "use all type" clauses?
> 
> This is OK; I don't use them mainly because I only use features implemented 
> in Janus/Ada, and "use all type" is not yet implemented there.
> 
> The fundamental problem with "use" is that it makes everything visible, and 
> then deals with conflicts by making those things invisible again.


> Since "use all type" only works on overloadable primitives (and things that 
> work rather like primitives), it's fairly safe. One could make an argument 
> that primitive operations should always be visible when the type is (that's 
> not the Ada rule, but argubly it would work better in most circumstances) --  
> and you should always know to look at primitives anyway when trying to find 
> something..

are you speaking about a case like Ada.Text_IO.Unbounded_IO?
i would say that these subprograms are not primitives, since they are 
not declared in the same package,
and i don't see in which case we could get a type visible but not its 
primitives.

in this case, the best thing to do that i found is:
   use all type Ada.Text_IO.File_Type;
   use Ada.Text_IO.Unbounded_IO;
is there sth best?


BTW, i often get a repetition in the same declare bloc, like:
   File       : Ada.Text_IO.File_Type;
   use all type Ada.Text_IO.File_Type;

what do you think about generate an automatic "use all type" where the 
variable is declared?


> 
> > - List.Clear? (could you remember me how you call that, please?)
> 
> For tagged types, you can use prefix notation, so "My_List.Clear" is the 
> easiest. With "use all type List", you can write Clear(My_List).

i asked for your opinion, because J-P. Rosen told me he doesn't like 
that. so i would like to know main usages, practicals, ...

if i got it, you use prefix notation a lot, because you have no access 
to "use all type"?


> ["Clear" works well even when someone uses 
> everything in sight] (of course, they may have a hard time finding where 
> Clear is defined when debugging, but that's their choice).

are you sure?
i would say either there is only 1 Clear for the type List, and if it's 
a primitive it's easy to know where to find it, or there are many Clear 
for the type List, and they are not visibles.


> 
> > - List.Clear does work only if List is tagged?
> 
> Right. There are a number of semantic issues for untagged types, the main 
> ones having to do with implicit dereference (which occurs in this notation, 
> as in any other selected_component notation). If you have a prefix of an 
> access type, it gets very messy to determine which dereference is which. And 
> just allowing composite types doesn't work well either: a private type that 
> is completed with an access type would *lose* operations when it had full 
> visibility -- that seems pretty weird.
> 
> It originally got limited to tagged types as that was easy to do and didn't 
> have semantic issues.

what's i don't understand is, there is sth which work better with tagged 
types than with untagged types, whereas tagged types are known to be 
more complex to give special functionnality, not to be simpler to use.

could you give me a concrete example please, of a case where using 
prefix notation with an untagged type causes a particular problem, and 
then making the type tagged permits to resolve the problem?


> We were going to look at generalizing the prefix 
> notation again (several people asked about it), but no one made a concrete 
> proposal and it never went anywhere for Ada 2022.

(maybe i could make one if i understand enough? :-) )

-- 
RAPID maintainer
http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/rapid/

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: use clauses
  2022-04-19  3:53                       ` Thomas
@ 2022-04-19  5:59                         ` Randy Brukardt
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Randy Brukardt @ 2022-04-19  5:59 UTC (permalink / raw)


"Thomas" <fantome.forums.tDeContes@free.fr.invalid> wrote in message 
news:625e324c$0$18369$426a34cc@news.free.fr...
> In article <t357jt$v7n$1@dont-email.me>,
> "Randy Brukardt" <randy@rrsoftware.com> wrote:
>
>> "Thomas" <fantome.forums.tDeContes@free.fr.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:62560a6b$0$18724$426a74cc@news.free.fr...
>> > In article <s5vqq9$lou$1@franka.jacob-sparre.dk>,
>> > "Randy Brukardt" <randy@rrsoftware.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I personally
>> >> only use "use type" in new code (there's tons of old code for which 
>> >> that
>> >> doesn't work, of course, but that doesn't change the principle).
>> >
>> > what do you think about:
>> > - "use all type" clauses?
>>
>> This is OK; I don't use them mainly because I only use features 
>> implemented
>> in Janus/Ada, and "use all type" is not yet implemented there.
>>
>> The fundamental problem with "use" is that it makes everything visible, 
>> and
>> then deals with conflicts by making those things invisible again.
>
>
>> Since "use all type" only works on overloadable primitives (and things 
>> that
>> work rather like primitives), it's fairly safe. One could make an 
>> argument
>> that primitive operations should always be visible when the type is 
>> (that's
>> not the Ada rule, but argubly it would work better in most 
>> circumstances) --
>> and you should always know to look at primitives anyway when trying to 
>> find
>> something..
>
> are you speaking about a case like Ada.Text_IO.Unbounded_IO?

No, I was thinking more about typical ADTs (abstract data types), which 
usually come with most of their operations in a package. The containers, 
Text_IO, and Claw are all examples. Operations in packages like this are the 
ones that "use all type" make visible, and that's OK because that's where 
you would look for operations on the type anyway.

> i would say that these subprograms are not primitives, since they are
> not declared in the same package,

Correct.

> and i don't see in which case we could get a type visible but not its
> primitives.

The primitives and type are visible, but not directly visible (I hate that 
terminology). Which means you can use them with full names, but not 
directly. For types, I almost always use the full name anyway (since they 
aren't referenced that much). So if you have an object:

     Fyle : Ada.Text_IO.File_Type;

the type is visible (but not directly visible). It's annoying that you have 
to jump thru hoops (such as "use all type") in order to get them. Operators 
in particular should always work so long as the type is visible (even if not 
directly visible). But that would require restricting where they are 
declared, and it's too late to do that for Ada.

> in this case, the best thing to do that i found is:
>   use all type Ada.Text_IO.File_Type;
>   use Ada.Text_IO.Unbounded_IO;
> is there sth best?

I just write out such things.

    Ada.Text_IO.Unbounded_IO.Put (My_String);

If I had to use a lot of them in some code, I'd probably use a local rename. 
It's not great, but at least you can figure out where the thing is declared 
without having some giant IDE running all the time..

> BTW, i often get a repetition in the same declare bloc, like:
>   File       : Ada.Text_IO.File_Type;
>   use all type Ada.Text_IO.File_Type;

Yup.

> what do you think about generate an automatic "use all type" where the
> variable is declared?

For tagged objects, you already have it effectively with prefix notation. 
And who cares about antique stuff?? :-)

>> > - List.Clear? (could you remember me how you call that, please?)
>>
>> For tagged types, you can use prefix notation, so "My_List.Clear" is the
>> easiest. With "use all type List", you can write Clear(My_List).
>
> i asked for your opinion, because J-P. Rosen told me he doesn't like
> that. so i would like to know main usages, practicals, ...
>
> if i got it, you use prefix notation a lot, because you have no access
> to "use all type"?

Nope: Janus/Ada doesn't implement that yet, either (it was an Ada 2005 
feature). I personally write a lot of long-winded identifiers:

    Foobar (UString => Ada.Strings.Unbounded.To_Unbounded_String 
(My_Package.Data_Selector (Glarch, 3));

(Although that one often gets a special rename:

     function "+" (A : in String) return 
Ada.Strings.Unbounded.Unbounded_String renames
       Ada.Strings.Unbounded.To_Unbounded_String;

and then:

    Foobar (UString => + My_Package.Data_Selector (Glarch, 3));

I'd rather not do that, but this one gets to be too much... :-)

>> ["Clear" works well even when someone uses
>> everything in sight] (of course, they may have a hard time finding where
>> Clear is defined when debugging, but that's their choice).
>
> are you sure?
> i would say either there is only 1 Clear for the type List, and if it's
> a primitive it's easy to know where to find it, or there are many Clear
> for the type List, and they are not visibles.

The usual problem is that they didn't name their objects very well and thus 
don't know the type. Or it's maintenance and you don't know the code well 
enough to know the type. Or it's 40 years later and you've forgotten 
everything you knew about the code (my situation with Janus/Ada code :-). If 
you don't know the type or know where it it declared, it's hard to know 
where to look for primitives. And not all code is organized as ADTs 
(especially true in older code), so there may not be a lot of primitives.

>> > - List.Clear does work only if List is tagged?
>>
>> Right. There are a number of semantic issues for untagged types, the main
>> ones having to do with implicit dereference (which occurs in this 
>> notation,
>> as in any other selected_component notation). If you have a prefix of an
>> access type, it gets very messy to determine which dereference is which. 
>> And
>> just allowing composite types doesn't work well either: a private type 
>> that
>> is completed with an access type would *lose* operations when it had full
>> visibility -- that seems pretty weird.
>>
>> It originally got limited to tagged types as that was easy to do and 
>> didn't
>> have semantic issues.
>
> what's i don't understand is, there is sth which work better with tagged
> types than with untagged types, whereas tagged types are known to be
> more complex to give special functionnality, not to be simpler to use.
>
> could you give me a concrete example please, of a case where using
> prefix notation with an untagged type causes a particular problem, and
> then making the type tagged permits to resolve the problem?

Go read the AIs, I would have to do that to find the details, and I'd 
probably transcribe it wrong. The last discussion was in AI12-0257-1. (I 
looked that up in the AI index - see 
http://www.ada-auth.org/AI12-VOTING.HTML for the Ada 2012 one.)

>> We were going to look at generalizing the prefix
>> notation again (several people asked about it), but no one made a 
>> concrete
>> proposal and it never went anywhere for Ada 2022.
>
> (maybe i could make one if i understand enough? :-) )

That's a big if! :-)

                                Randy.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2022-04-19  5:59 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 9+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
1986-08-06  2:08 USE clauses "David S. Bakin"
1986-08-07  1:09 ` alden%jade
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2021-04-17 21:45 Unchecked_Deallocation with tagged types DrPi
2021-04-18  8:21 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2021-04-18  9:13   ` DrPi
2021-04-18 16:48     ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2021-04-20 15:57       ` Stephen Leake
2021-04-20 17:24         ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2021-04-20 17:34           ` Vincent Marciante
2021-04-20 20:56             ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2021-04-21 10:21               ` Vincent Marciante
2021-04-24  1:04                 ` Randy Brukardt
2022-04-12 23:25                   ` use clauses Thomas
2022-04-13  1:05                     ` Randy Brukardt
2022-04-14  2:51                       ` 25.BX944
2022-04-14  6:49                         ` Emmanuel Briot
2022-04-15  5:33                         ` Doctor Who
2022-04-19  3:53                       ` Thomas
2022-04-19  5:59                         ` Randy Brukardt

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