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* yet another Ada web site?
@ 2022-08-25 10:01 Maxim Reznik
  2022-08-26 18:58 ` Paul Rubin
  2022-08-27  9:12 ` Rene
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 37+ messages in thread
From: Maxim Reznik @ 2022-08-25 10:01 UTC (permalink / raw)


Hello,

I wonder does Ada community need yet another web site?

My idea is here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ada/comments/wx9zp1/yet_another_ada_web_site/

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: yet another Ada web site?
  2022-08-25 10:01 yet another Ada web site? Maxim Reznik
@ 2022-08-26 18:58 ` Paul Rubin
  2022-08-27  9:12 ` Rene
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread
From: Paul Rubin @ 2022-08-26 18:58 UTC (permalink / raw)


Maxim Reznik <reznikmm@gmail.com> writes:
> I wonder does Ada community need yet another web site?

Adahome.com is sort of like that, but it is run by some company and
hasn't been updated in forever.  Maybe what you want is a wiki (like
forthfreak.net used to be), but you'd have to do a lot of work getting
it initially populated, before it became interesting enough to attract
more contributors.  It's very easy to suggest work for other people to
do, but they all have their own projects already.

I don't have much trouble finding any information that I want about Ada,
e.g. with web searches.  The challenge is in digesting and using the
information, not in finding it.  I don't see the proposed new web site
as being much help.  More helpful would be a systematic effort to
reproduce or at least supply Ada bindings for the main toolsets that
exist for other languages, to target popular microcontrollers, etc.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: yet another Ada web site?
  2022-08-25 10:01 yet another Ada web site? Maxim Reznik
  2022-08-26 18:58 ` Paul Rubin
@ 2022-08-27  9:12 ` Rene
  2022-08-27  9:53   ` Nasser M. Abbasi
  2022-09-30 10:29   ` shtps
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 37+ messages in thread
From: Rene @ 2022-08-27  9:12 UTC (permalink / raw)


Maxim Reznik wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I wonder does Ada community need yet another web site?
> 
> My idea is here:
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/ada/comments/wx9zp1/yet_another_ada_web_site/

Maybe a web forum would be a good idea, because many people nowadays see 
Usenet newgroups as an outdated thing. So the fact that the community 
mostly relies on comp.lang.ada may turn them off.
(I Don't want to discuss wether Uset actually outdated or not, but I 
guess many people feel this way)


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: yet another Ada web site?
  2022-08-27  9:12 ` Rene
@ 2022-08-27  9:53   ` Nasser M. Abbasi
  2022-08-28  7:21     ` Simon Wright
  2022-08-28  7:50     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
  2022-09-30 10:29   ` shtps
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 37+ messages in thread
From: Nasser M. Abbasi @ 2022-08-27  9:53 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 8/27/2022 4:12 AM, Rene wrote:
> Maxim Reznik wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I wonder does Ada community need yet another web site?
>>
>> My idea is here:
>>
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/ada/comments/wx9zp1/yet_another_ada_web_site/
> 
> Maybe a web forum would be a good idea, because many people nowadays see
> Usenet newgroups as an outdated thing. So the fact that the community
> mostly relies on comp.lang.ada may turn them off.
> (I Don't want to discuss wether Uset actually outdated or not, but I
> guess many people feel this way)
> 
> 

fyi,

Some are starting to use discord for such things. For example, the main
Julia forum is at discord

https://discourse.julialang.org/t/julialang-official-discord-server/45499

--Nasser



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: yet another Ada web site?
  2022-08-27  9:53   ` Nasser M. Abbasi
@ 2022-08-28  7:21     ` Simon Wright
  2022-08-28  7:50     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread
From: Simon Wright @ 2022-08-28  7:21 UTC (permalink / raw)


"Nasser M. Abbasi" <nma@12000.org> writes:

> Some are starting to use discord for such things.

Would be better than Telegram or Gitter - at any rate for actual
discussions.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: yet another Ada web site?
  2022-08-27  9:53   ` Nasser M. Abbasi
  2022-08-28  7:21     ` Simon Wright
@ 2022-08-28  7:50     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
  2022-08-28 10:26       ` Luke A. Guest
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread
From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2022-08-28  7:50 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 2022-08-27 11:53, Nasser M. Abbasi wrote:

> Some are starting to use discord for such things. For example, the main
> Julia forum is at discord
> 
> https://discourse.julialang.org/t/julialang-official-discord-server/45499

Indeed. It is quite uncomfortable I must say from my experience. (I 
participate there because I maintain Ada Julia bindings)

P.S. They just killed Firefox support keeping it listed as a supported 
browser...

P.P.S. Clearly, how anybody could implement a discussion board without 
making it dependent on pentabytes of browser-specific scripts. Right? (:-))

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: yet another Ada web site?
  2022-08-28  7:50     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
@ 2022-08-28 10:26       ` Luke A. Guest
  2022-09-16 15:25         ` Maxim Reznik
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread
From: Luke A. Guest @ 2022-08-28 10:26 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 28/08/2022 08:50, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:

> P.S. They just killed Firefox support keeping it listed as a supported 
> browser...
> 
> P.P.S. Clearly, how anybody could implement a discussion board without 
> making it dependent on pentabytes of browser-specific scripts. Right? (:-))
> 

Monopolisation of Chrome has to stop, it's not even a decent browser. 
Here, it can stop working, tabs stop rendering randomly here. But then 
that could also be an issue here? :/


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: yet another Ada web site?
  2022-08-28 10:26       ` Luke A. Guest
@ 2022-09-16 15:25         ` Maxim Reznik
  2022-09-16 17:07           ` Luke A. Guest
                             ` (5 more replies)
  0 siblings, 6 replies; 37+ messages in thread
From: Maxim Reznik @ 2022-09-16 15:25 UTC (permalink / raw)


I'm happy to announce a new Ada web site:

https://ada-lang.io/

Thank people who make it real!

I'm asking the community to send their updates and make it even better.

Here is the Paul Jarrett's original message:

Hi folks, @onox and me have been working on something for a few weeks, and we need your help. We've been building an open source, Ada community site to share with everyone. The intent is an open source community hub that will persist for a long time. There's a Github organization set up for people to contribute to and my intent is to hand off the domain to some existing Ada group.

Right now, I've migrated some of my old "programming with ada" content over, and I've built on Maxim's work to output a fancy version of the AARM for it. If you have content elsewhere you'd like to add, feel free to submit it. You can use plain Markdown (.md files) or Markdown with React (.mdx files). Some things which I haven't found time to write, which other people could help with, would be an Alire introduction, patterns for when binding to C, how to make a memory allocator, etc.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: yet another Ada web site?
  2022-09-16 15:25         ` Maxim Reznik
@ 2022-09-16 17:07           ` Luke A. Guest
  2022-09-16 17:34           ` Stephen Leake
                             ` (4 subsequent siblings)
  5 siblings, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread
From: Luke A. Guest @ 2022-09-16 17:07 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 16/09/2022 16:25, Maxim Reznik wrote:
> I'm happy to announce a new Ada web site:
> 
> https://ada-lang.io/

Looks decent, especially the non-yellow RM.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: yet another Ada web site?
  2022-09-16 15:25         ` Maxim Reznik
  2022-09-16 17:07           ` Luke A. Guest
@ 2022-09-16 17:34           ` Stephen Leake
  2022-09-16 18:45             ` Jere
  2022-09-16 18:49           ` Jere
                             ` (3 subsequent siblings)
  5 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread
From: Stephen Leake @ 2022-09-16 17:34 UTC (permalink / raw)


Maxim Reznik <reznikmm@gmail.com> writes:

> I'm happy to announce a new Ada web site:
>
> https://ada-lang.io/

It would be nice if comp.lang.ada was listed under "community"; this
newsgroup is far older than all those flash-in-the-pan wannabes :).

-- 
-- Stephe

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: yet another Ada web site?
  2022-09-16 17:34           ` Stephen Leake
@ 2022-09-16 18:45             ` Jere
  2022-09-17  9:45               ` Luke A. Guest
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread
From: Jere @ 2022-09-16 18:45 UTC (permalink / raw)


On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 1:34:07 PM UTC-4, Stephen Leake wrote:
> Maxim Reznik <> writes: 
> 
> > I'm happy to announce a new Ada web site: 
> > 
> > https://ada-lang.io/
> It would be nice if comp.lang.ada was listed under "community"; this 
> newsgroup is far older than all those flash-in-the-pan wannabes :). 
> 
> -- 
> -- Stephe
If you do add it, I would recommend NOT using a link to the google 
groups interface given the porn spam problem.  It would stink if
someone at a work computer followed it and got hammered by their
IT department (speaking from experience).  Perhaps someone has a
tutorial webpage on how to setup a mail reader for comp.lang.ada 
that could be linked to under the community section?

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: yet another Ada web site?
  2022-09-16 15:25         ` Maxim Reznik
  2022-09-16 17:07           ` Luke A. Guest
  2022-09-16 17:34           ` Stephen Leake
@ 2022-09-16 18:49           ` Jere
  2022-09-17 13:08           ` Move semantics (was: yet another Ada web site?) G.B.
                             ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  5 siblings, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread
From: Jere @ 2022-09-16 18:49 UTC (permalink / raw)


On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 11:25:42 AM UTC-4, Maxim Reznik wrote:
> I'm happy to announce a new Ada web site: 
> 
> https://ada-lang.io/ 
> 
> Thank people who make it real! 
> 
> I'm asking the community to send their updates and make it even better. 
> 
> Here is the Paul Jarrett's original message: 
> 
> Hi folks, @onox and me have been working on something for a few weeks, and we need your help. We've been building an open source, Ada community site to share with everyone. The intent is an open source community hub that will persist for a long time. There's a Github organization set up for people to contribute to and my intent is to hand off the domain to some existing Ada group. 
> 
> Right now, I've migrated some of my old "programming with ada" content over, and I've built on Maxim's work to output a fancy version of the AARM for it. If you have content elsewhere you'd like to add, feel free to submit it. You can use plain Markdown (.md files) or Markdown with React (.mdx files). Some things which I haven't found time to write, which other people could help with, would be an Alire introduction, patterns for when binding to C, how to make a memory allocator, etc.

I haven't gone through all of it yet, but so far, it looks very nice

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: yet another Ada web site?
  2022-09-16 18:45             ` Jere
@ 2022-09-17  9:45               ` Luke A. Guest
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread
From: Luke A. Guest @ 2022-09-17  9:45 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 16/09/2022 19:45, Jere wrote:
> On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 1:34:07 PM UTC-4, Stephen Leake wrote:
>> Maxim Reznik <> writes:
>>
>>> I'm happy to announce a new Ada web site:
>>>
>>> https://ada-lang.io/
>> It would be nice if comp.lang.ada was listed under "community"; this
>> newsgroup is far older than all those flash-in-the-pan wannabes :).
>>
>> -- 
>> -- Stephe
> If you do add it, I would recommend NOT using a link to the google
> groups interface given the porn spam problem.  It would stink if
> someone at a work computer followed it and got hammered by their
> IT department (speaking from experience).  Perhaps someone has a
> tutorial webpage on how to setup a mail reader for comp.lang.ada
> that could be linked to under the community section?

The  link would be news://comp.lang.ada

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Move semantics (was: yet another Ada web site?)
  2022-09-16 15:25         ` Maxim Reznik
                             ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2022-09-16 18:49           ` Jere
@ 2022-09-17 13:08           ` G.B.
  2022-09-19 17:04             ` Move semantics Stephen Leake
  2022-09-18  8:47           ` yet another Ada web site? grosdan
  2022-09-19  6:39           ` Emmanuel Briot
  5 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread
From: G.B. @ 2022-09-17 13:08 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 16.09.22 17:25, Maxim Reznik wrote:
> I'm happy to announce a new Ada web site:
> 
> https://ada-lang.io/
> 
> Thank people who make it real!
> 
> I'm asking the community to send their updates and make it even better.
> 
> Here is the Paul Jarrett's original message:
> 
> Hi folks, @onox and me have been working on something for a few weeks, and we need your help. We've been building an open source, Ada community site to share with everyone. The intent is an open source community hub that will persist for a long time. There's a Github organization set up for people to contribute to and my intent is to hand off the domain to some existing Ada group.
> 
> Right now, I've migrated some of my old "programming with ada" content over, 


<q loc=".../why-ada">Ada is missing: (...) A concept of "move".</q>

Is it somewhat true, though, that the old limited return,
or its more recent replacement, i.e., in situ construction,
could at least cover some of the idea of "move"?

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: yet another Ada web site?
  2022-09-16 15:25         ` Maxim Reznik
                             ` (3 preceding siblings ...)
  2022-09-17 13:08           ` Move semantics (was: yet another Ada web site?) G.B.
@ 2022-09-18  8:47           ` grosdan
  2022-09-18 10:57             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
                               ` (2 more replies)
  2022-09-19  6:39           ` Emmanuel Briot
  5 siblings, 3 replies; 37+ messages in thread
From: grosdan @ 2022-09-18  8:47 UTC (permalink / raw)


Hi, 

I am new to Ada and appreciate the new side for a package manager. 

What I wasn't able to identify is the packages available -- is there a list?

I am very curious what else exists in the Ada ecosystem -- in particular in terms of messaging support such as websockets and others. 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: yet another Ada web site?
  2022-09-18  8:47           ` yet another Ada web site? grosdan
@ 2022-09-18 10:57             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
  2022-09-18 16:28             ` Luke A. Guest
  2022-09-19 17:02             ` Stephen Leake
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread
From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2022-09-18 10:57 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 2022-09-18 10:47, grosdan wrote:

> I am new to Ada and appreciate the new side for a package manager.

I am not sure if package manager is a good idea if it does not refer the 
target system's packaging tools, e.g. DEB, RPM, MSI etc.

The main problem with that stuff is usually architectural. Most of it is 
plain aggregation of source code, which is utterly wrong.

The very idea to rebuild everything each time on each client is 
atrocious both with regard of wasting computing resources as well as 
testing, safety, consistency, interoperability inside the target.

> What I wasn't able to identify is the packages available -- is there a list?

https://www.adaic.com/ada-resources/tools-libraries/

> I am very curious what else exists in the Ada ecosystem -- in particular in terms of messaging support such as websockets and others.

There exists multiple implementations of websockets in Ada as well as 
other network protocols.

I cannot suggest searching the Web, because search engines deteriorated 
beyond any usability. Just ask what you need here.

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: yet another Ada web site?
  2022-09-18  8:47           ` yet another Ada web site? grosdan
  2022-09-18 10:57             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
@ 2022-09-18 16:28             ` Luke A. Guest
  2022-09-19 17:02             ` Stephen Leake
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread
From: Luke A. Guest @ 2022-09-18 16:28 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 18/09/2022 09:47, grosdan wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I am new to Ada and appreciate the new side for a package manager.
> 
> What I wasn't able to identify is the packages available -- is there a list?
> 
> I am very curious what else exists in the Ada ecosystem -- in particular in terms of messaging support such as websockets and others.

https://github.com/search?q=language%3AAda&type=Repositories&ref=advsearch&l=Ada&l=

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: yet another Ada web site?
  2022-09-16 15:25         ` Maxim Reznik
                             ` (4 preceding siblings ...)
  2022-09-18  8:47           ` yet another Ada web site? grosdan
@ 2022-09-19  6:39           ` Emmanuel Briot
  5 siblings, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread
From: Emmanuel Briot @ 2022-09-19  6:39 UTC (permalink / raw)


On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 5:25:42 PM UTC+2, Maxim Reznik wrote:
> I'm happy to announce a new Ada web site: 
> https://ada-lang.io/ 

Well done Maxim and Paul, the new site looks nice.

One area that could be nice is a blog aggregator, which would monitor various Ada-related blogs on the Internet and help people find those resources.
I am sure you guys already have plenty of ideas on what to add, so maybe not looking for more :-)

Emmanuel

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: yet another Ada web site?
  2022-09-18  8:47           ` yet another Ada web site? grosdan
  2022-09-18 10:57             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
  2022-09-18 16:28             ` Luke A. Guest
@ 2022-09-19 17:02             ` Stephen Leake
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread
From: Stephen Leake @ 2022-09-19 17:02 UTC (permalink / raw)


grosdan <grossd@modalai.co> writes:

> Hi, 
>
> I am new to Ada and appreciate the new side for a package manager. 

I assume you are talking about Alire.

> What I wasn't able to identify is the packages available -- is there a
> list?

In Alire, "packages" are called "crates"; there is a Crates menu item at
the top of the page, which takes you to
https://alire.ada.dev/crates.html, which gives a list of all crates
currently in Alire, with a brief description of each. Clicking on one
gives a more complete description.

-- 
-- Stephe

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: Move semantics
  2022-09-17 13:08           ` Move semantics (was: yet another Ada web site?) G.B.
@ 2022-09-19 17:04             ` Stephen Leake
  2022-09-19 18:50               ` Paul Rubin
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread
From: Stephen Leake @ 2022-09-19 17:04 UTC (permalink / raw)


"G.B." <bauhaus@notmyhomepage.invalid> writes:

> <q loc=".../why-ada">Ada is missing: (...) A concept of "move".</q>
>
> Is it somewhat true, though, that the old limited return,
> or its more recent replacement, i.e., in situ construction,
> could at least cover some of the idea of "move"?

What definition/semantics of "move" do you mean? Is it documented
somewhere?

-- 
-- Stephe

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: Move semantics
  2022-09-19 17:04             ` Move semantics Stephen Leake
@ 2022-09-19 18:50               ` Paul Rubin
  2022-09-20 11:44                 ` AdaMagica
  2022-09-24  6:54                 ` Stephen Leake
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 37+ messages in thread
From: Paul Rubin @ 2022-09-19 18:50 UTC (permalink / raw)


Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org> writes:
> What definition/semantics of "move" do you mean? Is it documented
> somewhere?

I think it refers to the C++ notion.
https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/utility/move

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: Move semantics
  2022-09-19 18:50               ` Paul Rubin
@ 2022-09-20 11:44                 ` AdaMagica
  2022-09-20 14:46                   ` Niklas Holsti
  2022-09-20 19:39                   ` Paul Rubin
  2022-09-24  6:54                 ` Stephen Leake
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 37+ messages in thread
From: AdaMagica @ 2022-09-20 11:44 UTC (permalink / raw)


Paul Rubin schrieb am Montag, 19. September 2022 um 20:50:50 UTC+2:
> I think it refers to the C++ notion. 
> https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/utility/move

What I do not understand: Why should the move operation be less expensive than a copy?
As I see it: First you have to do a copy, then delete the source.

>  but also means str might now be empty.

I find this "may be empty" astonishing.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: Move semantics
  2022-09-20 11:44                 ` AdaMagica
@ 2022-09-20 14:46                   ` Niklas Holsti
  2022-09-20 19:39                   ` Paul Rubin
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread
From: Niklas Holsti @ 2022-09-20 14:46 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 2022-09-20 14:44, AdaMagica wrote:
> Paul Rubin schrieb am Montag, 19. September 2022 um 20:50:50 UTC+2:
>> I think it refers to the C++ notion.
>> https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/utility/move
> 
> What I do not understand: Why should the move operation be less expensive than a copy?
> As I see it: First you have to do a copy, then delete the source.


The standard Ada containers have Move operations.

Containers are of course often implemented with indirection, where the 
container object contains accesses to the data held in the container, so 
a Move operation only has to copy the access values from the source to 
the target, and does not need to copy the data. The access values in the 
source are then nulled, making the source container empty. This is often 
less expensive than copying the data.

Eg. for Vectors, the Ada RM says "Move should not copy elements, and 
should minimize copying of internal data structures."

For the bounded Ada containers, which are not meant to use indirection, 
while there are Move operations the RM says that the implementation 
advice "to minimize copying" does not apply.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: Move semantics
  2022-09-20 11:44                 ` AdaMagica
  2022-09-20 14:46                   ` Niklas Holsti
@ 2022-09-20 19:39                   ` Paul Rubin
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread
From: Paul Rubin @ 2022-09-20 19:39 UTC (permalink / raw)


AdaMagica <christ-usch.grein@t-online.de> writes:
> What I do not understand: Why should the move operation be less
> expensive than a copy?

Besides avoiding copying indirectly pointed-to data, it also can enforce
single ownership in things like std::unique_ptr.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: Move semantics
  2022-09-19 18:50               ` Paul Rubin
  2022-09-20 11:44                 ` AdaMagica
@ 2022-09-24  6:54                 ` Stephen Leake
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread
From: Stephen Leake @ 2022-09-24  6:54 UTC (permalink / raw)


Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> writes:

> Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org> writes:
>> What definition/semantics of "move" do you mean? Is it documented
>> somewhere?
>
> I think it refers to the C++ notion.
> https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/utility/move

This may be similar to "ownership" in SPARK:
https://docs.adacore.com/live/wave/spark2014/html/spark2014_ug/en/source/language_restrictions.html#memory-ownership-policy

-- 
-- Stephe

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: yet another Ada web site?
  2022-08-27  9:12 ` Rene
  2022-08-27  9:53   ` Nasser M. Abbasi
@ 2022-09-30 10:29   ` shtps
  2022-09-30 12:29     ` Niklas Holsti
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread
From: shtps @ 2022-09-30 10:29 UTC (permalink / raw)


Am 27.08.22 um 11:12 schrieb Rene:
> Maxim Reznik wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I wonder does Ada community need yet another web site?
>>
>> My idea is here:
>>
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/ada/comments/wx9zp1/yet_another_ada_web_site/
> 
> Maybe a web forum would be a good idea, because many people nowadays see 
> Usenet newgroups as an outdated thing. So the fact that the community 
> mostly relies on comp.lang.ada may turn them off.
> (I Don't want to discuss wether Uset actually outdated or not, but I 
> guess many people feel this way)
> 
> 

How about a web forum as a front end to comp.lang.ada? While accessing 
Usenet through dedicated programs is considered old fashioned the 
underlying protocol has stood the test of time and could be used 
together with a fancy web interface (such as a forum).

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: yet another Ada web site?
  2022-09-30 10:29   ` shtps
@ 2022-09-30 12:29     ` Niklas Holsti
  2022-10-09 16:13       ` Stephen Leake
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread
From: Niklas Holsti @ 2022-09-30 12:29 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 2022-09-30 13:29, shtps wrote:
> Am 27.08.22 um 11:12 schrieb Rene:
>> Maxim Reznik wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I wonder does Ada community need yet another web site?
>>>
>>> My idea is here:
>>>
>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/ada/comments/wx9zp1/yet_another_ada_web_site/
>>
>> Maybe a web forum would be a good idea, because many people nowadays 
>> see Usenet newgroups as an outdated thing. So the fact that the 
>> community mostly relies on comp.lang.ada may turn them off.
>> (I Don't want to discuss wether Uset actually outdated or not, but I 
>> guess many people feel this way)
>>
>>
> 
> How about a web forum as a front end to comp.lang.ada? While accessing 
> Usenet through dedicated programs is considered old fashioned


Some may consider it old fashioned, but I very much prefer Usenet to all 
the web forum systems I've seen and tried to avoid using. I suspect many 
on comp.lang.ada share this view.

Some mail programs such as Thunderbird can also access Usenet, so you 
don't have to use a dedicated program. Well, unless you always use 
webmail for your mail.


> the underlying protocol has stood the test of time and could be used
> together with a fancy web interface (such as a forum).

That's what Google Groups does for comp.lang.ada, and sucks at it (or so 
I have heard, I've never used it myself).


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: yet another Ada web site?
  2022-09-30 12:29     ` Niklas Holsti
@ 2022-10-09 16:13       ` Stephen Leake
  2022-10-12  4:21         ` Paul Jarrett
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread
From: Stephen Leake @ 2022-10-09 16:13 UTC (permalink / raw)


Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> writes:

> On 2022-09-30 13:29, shtps wrote:
>> Am 27.08.22 um 11:12 schrieb Rene:
>> How about a web forum as a front end to comp.lang.ada? While
>> accessing Usenet through dedicated programs is considered old
>> fashioned
>
>
> Some may consider it old fashioned, but I very much prefer Usenet to
> all the web forum systems I've seen and tried to avoid using. I
> suspect many on comp.lang.ada share this view.

+1

>> the underlying protocol has stood the test of time and could be used
>> together with a fancy web interface (such as a forum).
>
> That's what Google Groups does for comp.lang.ada, and sucks at it (or
> so I have heard, I've never used it myself).

+2

-- 
-- Stephe

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: yet another Ada web site?
  2022-10-09 16:13       ` Stephen Leake
@ 2022-10-12  4:21         ` Paul Jarrett
  2022-10-13  0:06           ` Stephen Leake
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread
From: Paul Jarrett @ 2022-10-12  4:21 UTC (permalink / raw)


> Adahome.com is sort of like that, but it is run by some company and 
> hasn't been updated in forever.

https://ada-lang.io/ is designed to be updateable for a long time and open to community contributions by being completely open source.  There's already multiple people who have permissions to merge changes to help ensure longevity.

> I don't have much trouble finding any information that I want about Ada,
> e.g. with web searches.

> I cannot suggest searching the Web, because search engines deteriorated
> beyond any usability. Just ask what you need here.

ada-lang.io is indexed using Algolia, so the entire site (including the Ada 2022 draft RM) is searchable.

Someone else wrote a tool for searching through all code in Alire crates at https://search.synack.me/

> I am not sure if package manager is a good idea if it does not refer the
> target system's packaging tools, e.g. DEB, RPM, MSI etc.
>
> The main problem with that stuff is usually architectural. Most of it is
plain aggregation of source code, which is utterly wrong.
> 
> The very idea to rebuild everything each time on each client is
> atrocious both with regard of wasting computing resources as well as
> testing, safety, consistency, interoperability inside the target.

Alire can do additional build steps and other things.

As an application developer, having the code available helps in auditing third-party software for security reasons, build it in a debug configuration for troubleshooting, and also provides the means to locally fix bugs or adapt the library if needed.  Isolating libraries and including them with a package manager on a per project basis eases setup also by not making developers have to look up or use multiple installers.

I've seen inconsistencies in builds when developers who rely on the system libraries (installed by things like apt) join the project at different times -- the earliest developers might be on libfoo-1.2 whereas newer developers are on libfoo-1.4.  You don't run into this problem if the repo points to the applicable dependencies and everyone builds everything locally.  It also avoid other problems such as if your system's package manager doesn't have a particular library version, and the project builds that library from source.  It's not perfect and there's other problems that you run into, but it often does help understanding what is being built in the project more clear.  Alire even takes this an entire step further by being able to install and manage the toolchain as well (gprbuild and GNAT).

Package managers also simplify having multiple projects using the same library, but different and possibly incompatible versions on the same system.  You get a snapshot in time and a more consistent path to get a build working for new developers, or on a new system.  There are limitations due to what systems open source library writers have available to test on, so you shouldn't just blanket trust code you pull in though, and you should be careful how you use it.

Overall, Alire makes the experience building and developing in Ada for me on Windows, Mac and Linux, considerably simpler and more efficient, by providing the same interface for use across all of these systems.

With the beautiful site styling done by onox, someone pointed to ada-lang.io should be able to download Alire, install a toolchain, make a project and build in less than 15 minutes or so (depending on download and install time).  The work done by Fabien and Alejandro, and everyone else who has contributed to Alire to make this happen within the last couple years is absolutely incredible.  Combined with Maxim's fantastic work on the Ada language plugin for Visual Studio Code and it's a great experience for first-time users of the language.

> What definition/semantics of "move" do you mean? Is it documented
> somewhere?
> 
> What I do not understand: Why should the move operation be less expensive than a copy?
> As I see it: First you have to do a copy, then delete the source.
>
> Besides avoiding copying indirectly pointed-to data, it also can enforce
> single ownership in things like std::unique_ptr.

It's referring to the C++ and Rust notions of "move".

Moves can be less expensive than copy since it's a transfer of ownership of resources, such has handing off a heap allocated resources instead of doing an allocation and then copying the data, or handing off a socket or file handle to a new object.  It allows modelling different semantics.  E.g. in C++ there are both copy constructors/copy assignment operators, but also move constructors/move assignment operators.  Moves are the sense of "You can steal the resources if you want."

> Maybe a web forum would be a good idea, because many people nowadays see
> Usenet newgroups as an outdated thing. So the fact that the community
> mostly relies on comp.lang.ada may turn them off.

There's a dedicated forum now at https://forum.ada-lang.io/

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: yet another Ada web site?
  2022-10-12  4:21         ` Paul Jarrett
@ 2022-10-13  0:06           ` Stephen Leake
  2022-10-13  6:58             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread
From: Stephen Leake @ 2022-10-13  0:06 UTC (permalink / raw)


Paul Jarrett <jarrett.paul.young@gmail.com> writes:

>> I am not sure if package manager is a good idea if it does not refer the
>> target system's packaging tools, e.g. DEB, RPM, MSI etc.

Alire can define crates that import system libraries, using those tools.
They are subject to the same version checks as other Alire crates.

>> The main problem with that stuff is usually architectural. Most of it is
> plain aggregation of source code, which is utterly wrong.
>> 
>> The very idea to rebuild everything each time on each client is
>> atrocious both with regard of wasting computing resources as well as
>> testing, safety, consistency, interoperability inside the target.

Actually, it's better for consistency; that's why Alire does it.

I don't understand what you mean by "testing" here; how does compiling
from source affect testing?

Same for "interoperability".


> I've seen inconsistencies in builds when developers who rely on the
> system libraries (installed by things like apt) join the project at
> different times -- the earliest developers might be on libfoo-1.2
> whereas newer developers are on libfoo-1.4. You don't run into this
> problem if the repo points to the applicable dependencies and everyone
> builds everything locally. 

More precisely, an Alire crate can specify precisely which version of
each dependency it requires/is compatible with.

-- 
-- Stephe

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: yet another Ada web site?
  2022-10-13  0:06           ` Stephen Leake
@ 2022-10-13  6:58             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
  2022-10-14  8:41               ` Fabien Chouteau
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread
From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2022-10-13  6:58 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 2022-10-13 02:06, Stephen Leake wrote:
> Paul Jarrett <jarrett.paul.young@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>>> The main problem with that stuff is usually architectural. Most of it is
>> plain aggregation of source code, which is utterly wrong.
>>>
>>> The very idea to rebuild everything each time on each client is
>>> atrocious both with regard of wasting computing resources as well as
>>> testing, safety, consistency, interoperability inside the target.
> 
> Actually, it's better for consistency; that's why Alire does it.

Consistency is easier to enforce on pre-built deployments, obviously. 
Moreover libraries usually provide integrated checks and/or have some 
target platform policy, e.g. naming and placement conventions.

> I don't understand what you mean by "testing" here; how does compiling
> from source affect testing?

Because one can run tests on pre-built packages impossible to run on the 
sources. For example, network/hardware protocols. In order to test a 
protocol implementation one needs complex mock setups the client simply 
does not have. Such tests may run for many hours etc.

> Same for "interoperability".

See above. You cannot run integration tests on the client, it is just silly.

>> I've seen inconsistencies in builds when developers who rely on the
>> system libraries (installed by things like apt) join the project at
>> different times -- the earliest developers might be on libfoo-1.2
>> whereas newer developers are on libfoo-1.4. You don't run into this
>> problem if the repo points to the applicable dependencies and everyone
>> builds everything locally.

No difference whether deployment is in source or pre-built. Dependencies 
must be enforced regardless. However is far easier to do with pre-built 
packages.

> More precisely, an Alire crate can specify precisely which version of
> each dependency it requires/is compatible with.

It seems so. Multiple versions at once are not supported. E.g. when you 
are working on two projects both dependent on different versions of 
another project:

    B -> A.1
    C -> A.2

Or even the same project, e.g. when doing some migration from one 
version to another.

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: yet another Ada web site?
  2022-10-13  6:58             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
@ 2022-10-14  8:41               ` Fabien Chouteau
  2022-10-14 10:05                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread
From: Fabien Chouteau @ 2022-10-14  8:41 UTC (permalink / raw)


On Thursday, October 13, 2022 at 8:58:20 AM UTC+2, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:
> It seems so. Multiple versions at once are not supported. E.g. when you 
> are working on two projects both dependent on different versions of 
> another project: 
> 
> B -> A.1 
> C -> A.2 

Yes of course, different crates can depend on different version of the same crate.

> Or even the same project, e.g. when doing some migration from one 
> version to another.

Not sure how you would do that? Link two different version of the same library in an executable? That's not going to work.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: yet another Ada web site?
  2022-10-14  8:41               ` Fabien Chouteau
@ 2022-10-14 10:05                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
  2022-10-14 11:19                   ` Stephen Leake
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread
From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2022-10-14 10:05 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 2022-10-14 10:41, Fabien Chouteau wrote:
> On Thursday, October 13, 2022 at 8:58:20 AM UTC+2, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:
>> It seems so. Multiple versions at once are not supported. E.g. when you
>> are working on two projects both dependent on different versions of
>> another project:
>>
>> B -> A.1
>> C -> A.2
> 
> Yes of course, different crates can depend on different version of the same crate.

It is about whether both A's can be installed and coexist on the same 
machine.

>> Or even the same project, e.g. when doing some migration from one
>> version to another.
> 
> Not sure how you would do that? Link two different version of the same library in an executable? That's not going to work.

Same as above. You have B.1 -> A.1 and B.* -> A.2. You want to install 
both A.1 and A.2 and work on B.* while checking on B.1.

In the long gone time of common sense, a project code management system 
would use a virtual file system and map different parts of the projects 
graph onto a structure of folders arranged by versions. Today one would 
use something ugly like a virtual machine or incredibly ugly like a docker.

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: yet another Ada web site?
  2022-10-14 10:05                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
@ 2022-10-14 11:19                   ` Stephen Leake
  2022-10-14 13:05                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread
From: Stephen Leake @ 2022-10-14 11:19 UTC (permalink / raw)


"Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> writes:

> On 2022-10-14 10:41, Fabien Chouteau wrote:
>> On Thursday, October 13, 2022 at 8:58:20 AM UTC+2, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:
>>> It seems so. Multiple versions at once are not supported. E.g. when you
>>> are working on two projects both dependent on different versions of
>>> another project:
>>>
>>> B -> A.1
>>> C -> A.2
>> Yes of course, different crates can depend on different version of
>> the same crate.
>
> It is about whether both A's can be installed and coexist on the same
> machine.

In Alire, "installed" means "checked out the source code into a local
directory".

If A depends on a system library that is a shared object file, and those
are different versions, then it depends on the OS; Debian can handle
this nicely, Windows only via separate directories and search paths.


>>> Or even the same project, e.g. when doing some migration from one
>>> version to another.
>> Not sure how you would do that? Link two different version of the
>> same library in an executable? That's not going to work.
>
> Same as above. You have B.1 -> A.1 and B.* -> A.2. You want to install
> both A.1 and A.2 and work on B.* while checking on B.1.

And the solution is the same as well.

> In the long gone time of common sense, a project code management
> system would use a virtual file system and map different parts of the
> projects graph onto a structure of folders arranged by versions. 

What prevents that now?

-- 
-- Stephe

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: yet another Ada web site?
  2022-10-14 11:19                   ` Stephen Leake
@ 2022-10-14 13:05                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
  2022-10-16  8:54                       ` G.B.
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread
From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2022-10-14 13:05 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 2022-10-14 13:19, Stephen Leake wrote:
> "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> writes:
> 
>> On 2022-10-14 10:41, Fabien Chouteau wrote:
>>> On Thursday, October 13, 2022 at 8:58:20 AM UTC+2, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:
>>>> It seems so. Multiple versions at once are not supported. E.g. when you
>>>> are working on two projects both dependent on different versions of
>>>> another project:
>>>>
>>>> B -> A.1
>>>> C -> A.2
>>> Yes of course, different crates can depend on different version of
>>> the same crate.
>>
>> It is about whether both A's can be installed and coexist on the same
>> machine.
> 
> In Alire, "installed" means "checked out the source code into a local
> directory".
> 
> If A depends on a system library that is a shared object file, and those
> are different versions, then it depends on the OS; Debian can handle
> this nicely, Windows only via separate directories and search paths.
> 
> 
>>>> Or even the same project, e.g. when doing some migration from one
>>>> version to another.
>>> Not sure how you would do that? Link two different version of the
>>> same library in an executable? That's not going to work.
>>
>> Same as above. You have B.1 -> A.1 and B.* -> A.2. You want to install
>> both A.1 and A.2 and work on B.* while checking on B.1.
> 
> And the solution is the same as well.
> 
>> In the long gone time of common sense, a project code management
>> system would use a virtual file system and map different parts of the
>> projects graph onto a structure of folders arranged by versions.
> 
> What prevents that now?

Nothing except that it is to be done manually. Why not download a source 
archive and bother with anything? It is Turing-complete, after all... (:-))

The advantage of a file system is that developing image will be 
automated and consistent. And you would not need to move any files 
physically. Alire is extremely slow because it must pull all files [and 
then compile them on top of that].

Furthermore, a virtual file system shares duplicates of the same version 
of same file. When you work with naked Git you must have as many copies 
as you have projects. Same applies to virtual machines and dockers. It 
is a huge overhead for nothing.

Moreover, a virtual file system is instant so long you do not access a 
file for read or write. Which is the case for gprbuild, make and other 
tools which use timestamps and then never look into files.

With a virtual file system you can automatically check in all files on 
closing if it was open for write and never worry about command-line mess 
or plug-ins. Any tool will work out of the box.

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: yet another Ada web site?
  2022-10-14 13:05                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
@ 2022-10-16  8:54                       ` G.B.
  2022-10-16  9:20                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 37+ messages in thread
From: G.B. @ 2022-10-16  8:54 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 14.10.22 15:05, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:

>>> Same as above. You have B.1 -> A.1 and B.* -> A.2. You want to install
>>> both A.1 and A.2 and work on B.* while checking on B.1.

> Furthermore, a virtual file system shares duplicates of the same version of same file. When you work with naked Git you must have as many copies as you have projects. Same applies to virtual machines and dockers. It is a huge overhead for nothing.

Inasmuch as versions are subject to business, software configuration
management is just work that requires resources for to get it done.
Problem solved. (Well, not for the small shop on a budget, granted.)

To what extent can static linking make B.1 and B.2 exist on the
same system?

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

* Re: yet another Ada web site?
  2022-10-16  8:54                       ` G.B.
@ 2022-10-16  9:20                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 37+ messages in thread
From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2022-10-16  9:20 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 2022-10-16 10:54, G.B. wrote:
> On 14.10.22 15:05, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:
> 
>>>> Same as above. You have B.1 -> A.1 and B.* -> A.2. You want to install
>>>> both A.1 and A.2 and work on B.* while checking on B.1.
> 
>> Furthermore, a virtual file system shares duplicates of the same 
>> version of same file. When you work with naked Git you must have as 
>> many copies as you have projects. Same applies to virtual machines and 
>> dockers. It is a huge overhead for nothing.
> 
> Inasmuch as versions are subject to business, software configuration
> management is just work that requires resources for to get it done.

Yes, human resources especially. It is a self-feeding system that exist 
in each organization. It creates problems in order to justify its 
continuous growth. Modern time tools excel wasting and perfect outright 
meaninglessness.

> Problem solved. (Well, not for the small shop on a budget, granted.)

I cannot say that ClearCase, which did things more or less right 20 
years ago, was for small business either. (:-)) AFAIK it is still 
available and GNAT Studio supports it. However, IBM (Rational, actually) 
fulfills it existential end goal of wasting personal and hardware 
resources by other, no less efficient, techniques... (:-))

> To what extent can static linking make B.1 and B.2 exist on the
> same system?

To a full extent! (:-))
Sorry, I do not understand your question...

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 37+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2022-10-16  9:20 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 37+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2022-08-25 10:01 yet another Ada web site? Maxim Reznik
2022-08-26 18:58 ` Paul Rubin
2022-08-27  9:12 ` Rene
2022-08-27  9:53   ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2022-08-28  7:21     ` Simon Wright
2022-08-28  7:50     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2022-08-28 10:26       ` Luke A. Guest
2022-09-16 15:25         ` Maxim Reznik
2022-09-16 17:07           ` Luke A. Guest
2022-09-16 17:34           ` Stephen Leake
2022-09-16 18:45             ` Jere
2022-09-17  9:45               ` Luke A. Guest
2022-09-16 18:49           ` Jere
2022-09-17 13:08           ` Move semantics (was: yet another Ada web site?) G.B.
2022-09-19 17:04             ` Move semantics Stephen Leake
2022-09-19 18:50               ` Paul Rubin
2022-09-20 11:44                 ` AdaMagica
2022-09-20 14:46                   ` Niklas Holsti
2022-09-20 19:39                   ` Paul Rubin
2022-09-24  6:54                 ` Stephen Leake
2022-09-18  8:47           ` yet another Ada web site? grosdan
2022-09-18 10:57             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2022-09-18 16:28             ` Luke A. Guest
2022-09-19 17:02             ` Stephen Leake
2022-09-19  6:39           ` Emmanuel Briot
2022-09-30 10:29   ` shtps
2022-09-30 12:29     ` Niklas Holsti
2022-10-09 16:13       ` Stephen Leake
2022-10-12  4:21         ` Paul Jarrett
2022-10-13  0:06           ` Stephen Leake
2022-10-13  6:58             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2022-10-14  8:41               ` Fabien Chouteau
2022-10-14 10:05                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2022-10-14 11:19                   ` Stephen Leake
2022-10-14 13:05                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2022-10-16  8:54                       ` G.B.
2022-10-16  9:20                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov

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