From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Received: by 2002:a6b:1cc9:: with SMTP id c192-v6mr2533413ioc.120.1530824716513; Thu, 05 Jul 2018 14:05:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:aca:2b06:: with SMTP id i6-v6mr1679230oik.0.1530824716250; Thu, 05 Jul 2018 14:05:16 -0700 (PDT) Path: eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!border1.nntp.ams1.giganews.com!border2.nntp.ams1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsreader5.netcologne.de!news.netcologne.de!peer03.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer03.am4!peer.am4.highwinds-media.com!peer02.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!u78-v6no2963119itb.0!news-out.google.com!l67-v6ni3013itl.0!nntp.google.com!d7-v6no2995765itj.0!postnews.google.com!glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 14:05:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <03e41844-c229-4c56-87aa-372232337281@googlegroups.com> Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com; posting-host=47.185.195.62; posting-account=zwxLlwoAAAChLBU7oraRzNDnqQYkYbpo NNTP-Posting-Host: 47.185.195.62 References: <856189aa-fa00-4960-929e-174f352310ad@googlegroups.com> <2718c8d4-5f35-4fd8-a1aa-1e60069a7a5d@googlegroups.com> <39fce60c-9f56-42fb-b679-fa08810b00ee@googlegroups.com> <3701bf07-89a5-4cb0-a704-5aebb589ca79@googlegroups.com> <2f5e4ce0-94e8-4b94-9da7-045ec90a9b22@googlegroups.com> <18554067-1382-4b43-a832-2d27aa5117d7@googlegroups.com> <8dc19505-b68a-403c-a164-f1de1864f3f1@googlegroups.com> <559657f8-bbf4-4a70-9449-f85bc98d6c6b@googlegroups.com> <590d4672-4aef-42a5-823c-57ccd291115a@googlegroups.com> <8de6b5ba-25ab-4d46-b80c-1544f43a9b05@googlegroups.com> <235b3f29-becd-476c-9efd-3c4bf6ebfad5@googlegroups.com> <03e41844-c229-4c56-87aa-372232337281@googlegroups.com> User-Agent: G2/1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Teaching C/C++ from Ada perspective? From: "Dan'l Miller" Injection-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2018 21:05:16 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Received-Bytes: 5218 X-Received-Body-CRC: 3163773121 Xref: reader02.eternal-september.org comp.lang.ada:53677 Date: 2018-07-05T14:05:15-07:00 List-Id: On Thursday, July 5, 2018 at 3:38:43 PM UTC-5, Maciej Sobczak wrote: > > The (unacceptable) corollary to C++11's =E2=80=9Cas-if=E2=80=9D rule as= stated: > > As long as any portion of a program that has even one undefined behavio= r, the =E2=80=A2visible effects=E2=80=A2 can be > > anything (on the current target ISA, even if the undefined behavior is = quite reliably deterministic & > > useful on the current target ISA). >=20 > And this is where you contradict yourself. If a) all C++ is one big undef= ined behavior and b) thus the > visible effects can be anything, then the implementation can behave like = R1000 [*], which contradicts > your statement that it cannot be done. If C++ is one big undefined behavior, and thus visible effects can be anyth= ing, then C++ can behave as if it is a million monkeys banging on typewrite= r keyboards accidentally writing the works of Shakespeare (or better yet, a= non-troller-fisherman response from you). I never said that all of C++ is one big undefined behavior. I effectively = said that C++ is uncouth enough in numerous enough places to be a long-horn= ed bull in a densely-stocked china-porcelain shop, ruining all attempts to = elevate software engineering to the level that R1000 achieved by cohesive i= ntegration. C++ has dragged down GNAT. C++ has thus dragged down our enti= re industry. A bull in a china shop won't accidentally bang out the works = of Shakespeare on a million typewriter keyboards. > [*] The problem is - apparently nobody wants it. If no one wants it, then why is it still for sale all these decades later b= y the company that bought IBM's Rational compiler intellectual property? A= nd why do they have paying customers who buy it? > > When the =E2=80=A2absence of evidence=E2=80=A2 is in Ada's favor (in th= e prior quote before =E2=80=9Cvis a vis=E2=80=9D), then the > > speaker is an ignorant-of-=E2=80=9Cfundamental-logic=E2=80=9D dolt.=20 > > > > When the =E2=80=A2absence of evidence=E2=80=A2 is in C++'s favor (in th= is quote after =E2=80=9Cvis a vis=E2=80=9D), then it is the paragon > > of universal-generalization from which vast one-size-fits-all wisdom sh= all be harvested & weaponized > > (to kill off any virtues of R1000 and to kill off teaching C++ in an Ad= a-esque way).=20 >=20 > I'm sorry, but I got completely lost in your convoluted elaboration on th= is matter. > Let's make this discussion more concrete again (if it ever was): can you = show a short (that is, practical for the discussion group) code example tha= t demonstrates your point (whatever it is)? Your =E2=80=9Cfundamental logic=E2=80=9D insult of me above was not in code= ; it was in the English prose that you yourself wrote that I then merely qu= oted back to you. Now I am to write up a program that insults myself the w= ay you did, just so that you can see it (because you have can't or won't re= ad the English prose that you yourself wrote)?