From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Path: buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newspeer1.nac.net!feeder.erje.net!eu.feeder.erje.net!newsfeed.fsmpi.rwth-aachen.de!eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Simon Clubley Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Subject: Re: why the pascal family of languages (Pascal, Ada, Modula-2, 2, Oberon, Delphi, Algol, ...) failed compared to the C family? Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2014 12:04:44 +0000 (UTC) Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Message-ID: References: Injection-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2014 12:04:44 +0000 (UTC) Injection-Info: mx05.eternal-september.org; posting-host="e458ff8b81bc0c159989eb0e36c6e372"; logging-data="2226"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/McY7t0dW8yirz5gpi0pSNWUlkqz17u9I=" User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.1 (VMS/Multinet) Cancel-Lock: sha1:wTW7K5O7yC8lRphYzuxbsp698NM= Xref: number.nntp.dca.giganews.com comp.lang.ada:187649 Date: 2014-07-17T12:04:44+00:00 List-Id: On 2014-07-17, Harvey White wrote: > On 2014-07-16, Nasser M. Abbasi wrote: >> >> The first language I really liked was Pascal. >> But the Pascal family of languages (including Ada) have >> clearly failed to become popular, at least compared >> to the C-family (C, C++, C#, ....) >> >> The question is why did this happen? > > Another question is why does this matter? > > Popularity does help in that people still write toolchains. Otherwise, > history seems to show good and popular are inversely related. And technology > seems to be going in the direction of least common denominator. Lots to be > said here. Not enough time to say it. > It matters because if we can get people to start using a safer language then maybe, just maybe, we might see a major reduction in the number of security issues in common languages. There's also no need for a LCD language to be an insecure LCD language. Unfortunately, one of the reasons everyone goes for C is because it's so widely available you can guarantee your code will work with every platform/target/mainstream programming language out there. In order to replace C with another safer LCD language, that other language needs to be available on the same range of platforms/targets or people will continue to write libraries designed for wide use in C simply because they don't have any other choice at the moment. >> My theory: C was used to develop Unix/Linux and >> Windows, and this made it easier for applications >> to be written in C/C++ since the interface to the OS >> was easier. > > I think so. The best language to write code on a given OS is almost always > the language the OS was written in. That alone has been enough to prop up C > and C-derivatives long after they should have been killed. There really > isn't anything else to code with in Linux and UNIX if you need full > system interface. And as many have complained this also affects library > utility and access. > That's not the case for VMS with it's common calling standard, at least for traditional procedural languages. >> VMS did not choose C (considered a huge >> blunder by many. They choose Bliss >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLISS instead! and we >> all know what happens to VMS. > > That is not because of not choosing C. And I believe by now most of of VMS > is written in their MACRO assembly language rather than BLISS but I'm not > sure it's relevant. The issue AIUI is somewhat tangential to Ada's > problems. VMS people seem to present a good case that VMS is really a good, > safe OS. Linux is cheap, cheap and that's the overriding concern these > past few decades. It only gets worse as time goes by. > That was back in the VAX days. There's been a movement towards C within later VMS code and you can now write VMS device drivers in C and have been able to do so for many years. (Unlike Ada, VMS is a part of my day job.) There's still a great amount of MACRO/BLISS around however. You would have to ask on comp.os.vms for some numbers however because I don't have a feeling for the VMS code base breakdown by the language used. Simon. -- Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world