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* Janus Ada 1.5 Ada cp/m manuals
@ 2021-08-14 23:05 Luke A. Guest
  2021-08-17  7:23 ` Randy Brukardt
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Luke A. Guest @ 2021-08-14 23:05 UTC (permalink / raw)



Does anyone have electronic copies? They’re not in the zips available.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: Janus Ada 1.5 Ada cp/m manuals
  2021-08-14 23:05 Janus Ada 1.5 Ada cp/m manuals Luke A. Guest
@ 2021-08-17  7:23 ` Randy Brukardt
  2021-08-17  9:03   ` Paul Rubin
  2021-08-17  9:16   ` Luke A. Guest
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Randy Brukardt @ 2021-08-17  7:23 UTC (permalink / raw)


"Luke A. Guest" <laguest@archeia.com> wrote in message 
news:sf9i9b$1rft$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>
> Does anyone have electronic copies? They're not in the zips available.

Unfortunately, they don't exist. The original source was for a 
photo-typesetter that hasn't existed for decades (and mostly likely is only 
stored on 8" floppies that probably aren't readable even if the right 
hardware was available).

The only way for them to exist is for someone to scan a printed version.

I have a single printed version in our archives (with installation 
instructions for 8" floppies dated March 5, 1984). Its got someone's 
hardwritten notes in it (it's not pristine). Anyway, since it is the only 
known version, I won't let it out of the office, since it is literally 
irreplaceable.

I've offered to others to scan it to PDFs (one per page, that's all I can 
figure out how to do on our cheap multifunction machine here) if someone 
would want to convert that to something more usable. But since I'd have to 
scan each page individually and the document is an inch thick give or take a 
few millimeters, I'd need some compensation for the time. (I have lots of 
things I could be doing that are either fun, make money, or advance Ada --  
this is none of these!) Contact me privately if you want to discuss this 
further.

BTW, since RRS still exists and never made a public version for any version 
of Janus/Ada (including the CP/M versions) -- because all of the versions 
are derived from the same original source and it is likely that some of the 
compiler still survives from those versions) -- using it without a license 
is technically infringing. I don't think there is much chance that anyone 
would try to stop non-commercial use, but I would suggest getting legal if 
anything commercial is involved. (And yes, we periodically get requests for 
help with it from users that I would have expected to have moved on long 
ago.)

                                              Randy Brukardt, founder, R.R. 
Software, Inc.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: Janus Ada 1.5 Ada cp/m manuals
  2021-08-17  7:23 ` Randy Brukardt
@ 2021-08-17  9:03   ` Paul Rubin
  2021-08-17  9:25     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
  2021-08-19  2:34     ` Randy Brukardt
  2021-08-17  9:16   ` Luke A. Guest
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Paul Rubin @ 2021-08-17  9:03 UTC (permalink / raw)


"Randy Brukardt" <randy@rrsoftware.com> writes:
> I've offered to others to scan it to PDFs (one per page, that's all I can 
> figure out how to do on our cheap multifunction machine here)

Do you think you could scan and post one page, maybe from the middle, so
we would know what we are dealing with?

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: Janus Ada 1.5 Ada cp/m manuals
  2021-08-17  7:23 ` Randy Brukardt
  2021-08-17  9:03   ` Paul Rubin
@ 2021-08-17  9:16   ` Luke A. Guest
  2021-08-17  9:28     ` Luke A. Guest
                       ` (2 more replies)
  1 sibling, 3 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Luke A. Guest @ 2021-08-17  9:16 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 17/08/2021 08:23, Randy Brukardt wrote:
> "Luke A. Guest" <laguest@archeia.com> wrote in message
> news:sf9i9b$1rft$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>>
>> Does anyone have electronic copies? They're not in the zips available.
> 
> Unfortunately, they don't exist. The original source was for a
> photo-typesetter that hasn't existed for decades (and mostly likely is only
> stored on 8" floppies that probably aren't readable even if the right
> hardware was available).

There are a few retro youtube channels who could handle getting any old 
hardware working if you have it and are willing to donate or lend it to 
them, retro recipes, rmc, 8-bit guy, etc.

> The only way for them to exist is for someone to scan a printed version.
> 
> I have a single printed version in our archives (with installation
> instructions for 8" floppies dated March 5, 1984). Its got someone's
> hardwritten notes in it (it's not pristine). Anyway, since it is the only
> known version, I won't let it out of the office, since it is literally
> irreplaceable.
> 
> I've offered to others to scan it to PDFs (one per page, that's all I can
> figure out how to do on our cheap multifunction machine here) if someone

Maybe you should let someone come in with their own laptop and scanner 
to do it.

> BTW, since RRS still exists and never made a public version for any version
> of Janus/Ada (including the CP/M versions) -- because all of the versions
> are derived from the same original source and it is likely that some of the
> compiler still survives from those versions) -- using it without a license
> is technically infringing. I don't think there is much chance that anyone
> would try to stop non-commercial use, but I would suggest getting legal if
> anything commercial is involved. (And yes, we periodically get requests for
> help with it from users that I would have expected to have moved on long
> ago.)

Seriously? Even Caldera released CP/M tot he public and Amstrad released 
the source to the Spectrum ROM's.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: Janus Ada 1.5 Ada cp/m manuals
  2021-08-17  9:03   ` Paul Rubin
@ 2021-08-17  9:25     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
  2021-08-19  2:34     ` Randy Brukardt
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2021-08-17  9:25 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 2021-08-17 11:03, Paul Rubin wrote:
> "Randy Brukardt" <randy@rrsoftware.com> writes:
>> I've offered to others to scan it to PDFs (one per page, that's all I can
>> figure out how to do on our cheap multifunction machine here)
> 
> Do you think you could scan and post one page, maybe from the middle, so
> we would know what we are dealing with?

I saw a few forums about reading 8" floppies. It looks quite doable. 
Floppies are very reliable too, my old 3.5" floppies from 90's are still 
readable. I think there are good chances of success.

Conversion from typesetting to HTML would be a neat Ada program... (:-))

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: Janus Ada 1.5 Ada cp/m manuals
  2021-08-17  9:16   ` Luke A. Guest
@ 2021-08-17  9:28     ` Luke A. Guest
  2021-08-17 10:10     ` Luke A. Guest
  2021-08-18 20:05     ` Randy Brukardt
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Luke A. Guest @ 2021-08-17  9:28 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 17/08/2021 10:16, Luke A. Guest wrote:

>> BTW, since RRS still exists and never made a public version for any 
>> version
>> of Janus/Ada (including the CP/M versions) -- because all of the versions
>> are derived from the same original source and it is likely that some 
>> of the
>> compiler still survives from those versions) -- using it without a 
>> license
>> is technically infringing. I don't think there is much chance that anyone
>> would try to stop non-commercial use, but I would suggest getting 
>> legal if
>> anything commercial is involved. (And yes, we periodically get 
>> requests for
>> help with it from users that I would have expected to have moved on long
>> ago.)
> 
> Seriously? Even Caldera released CP/M tot he public and Amstrad released 
> the source to the Spectrum ROM's.

Having an official public release would be good for historical reasons. 
Having the source would be even better, for curios like me who have been 
wondering how old 8-bit compilers worked.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: Janus Ada 1.5 Ada cp/m manuals
  2021-08-17  9:16   ` Luke A. Guest
  2021-08-17  9:28     ` Luke A. Guest
@ 2021-08-17 10:10     ` Luke A. Guest
  2021-08-18 20:05     ` Randy Brukardt
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Luke A. Guest @ 2021-08-17 10:10 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 17/08/2021 10:16, Luke A. Guest wrote:
> On 17/08/2021 08:23, Randy Brukardt wrote:
>> "Luke A. Guest" <laguest@archeia.com> wrote in message
>> news:sf9i9b$1rft$1@gioia.aioe.org...

>> stored on 8" floppies that probably aren't readable even if the right
>> hardware was available).
> 
> There are a few retro youtube channels who could handle getting any old 
> hardware working if you have it and are willing to donate or lend it to 
> them, retro recipes, rmc, 8-bit guy, etc.

8-bit guy definitely had a drive that worked, has a video on it, don't 
know if he still has it.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: Janus Ada 1.5 Ada cp/m manuals
  2021-08-17  9:16   ` Luke A. Guest
  2021-08-17  9:28     ` Luke A. Guest
  2021-08-17 10:10     ` Luke A. Guest
@ 2021-08-18 20:05     ` Randy Brukardt
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Randy Brukardt @ 2021-08-18 20:05 UTC (permalink / raw)


"Luke A. Guest" <laguest@archeia.com> wrote in message 
news:sffuqj$1br8$1@gioia.aioe.org...
> On 17/08/2021 08:23, Randy Brukardt wrote:
...
>> The only way for them to exist is for someone to scan a printed version.
>>
>> I have a single printed version in our archives (with installation
>> instructions for 8" floppies dated March 5, 1984). Its got someone's
>> hardwritten notes in it (it's not pristine). Anyway, since it is the only
>> known version, I won't let it out of the office, since it is literally
>> irreplaceable.
>>
>> I've offered to others to scan it to PDFs (one per page, that's all I can
>> figure out how to do on our cheap multifunction machine here) if someone
>
> Maybe you should let someone come in with their own laptop and scanner to 
> do it.

That would be an option; I didn't think of it as the last person that wanted 
it was in Scandinavia and visiting Madison WI would be far more expense than 
giving me a few hundred dollars to do it. If there is some US-based person 
that wants to do that, the dynamics are different.

>Having an official public release would be good for historical reasons.

Most likely don't have the capability to make such a release (I do have a 
Z-80 CP/M machine in storage, but it's unlikely to boot - S-100 machines 
stored a year usually needed extensive cleaning of contacts to work, after 
20 years...).

> Having the source would be even better, for curios like me who have been 
> wondering how old 8-bit compilers worked.

So far as I know, that's (partially) lost. I had moved it to dual 5 1/4" 
floppies, and I was asked to throw out all of the redundant stuff to save 
space when we moved to a smaller space. When I was retiring the last working 
machine with 5 1/4", I decided to move it into our version control, but was 
unable to read all of the floppies. So parts are lost. That's OK from an RRS 
perspective, as we wouldn't use an ancient code generator in anything new 
anyway (it would need to hook to the modern optimizer/static analyzer, so it 
would need a full redo anyway). I did manage to get the runtime into our 
version control, something that would be a lot more work to reproduce.

In any case, parts of the source (and more importantly, design) are still in 
use so giving it away isn't really an option.

                                   Randy.




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: Janus Ada 1.5 Ada cp/m manuals
  2021-08-17  9:03   ` Paul Rubin
  2021-08-17  9:25     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
@ 2021-08-19  2:34     ` Randy Brukardt
  2021-08-20  5:25       ` Paul Rubin
  2021-08-20  7:58       ` Paul Rubin
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Randy Brukardt @ 2021-08-19  2:34 UTC (permalink / raw)


"Paul Rubin" <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote in message 
news:878s10jvdc.fsf@nightsong.com...
> "Randy Brukardt" <randy@rrsoftware.com> writes:
>> I've offered to others to scan it to PDFs (one per page, that's all I can
>> figure out how to do on our cheap multifunction machine here)
>
> Do you think you could scan and post one page, maybe from the middle, so
> we would know what we are dealing with?

That I can do. See

http://www.rrsoftware.com/archives/CPM-doc-sample.zip

There are three pages in here, one from the 3.3 upgrade text, and two from 
the regular 3.2 printed manual. (I don't think there ever was a consolidated 
version.)

Looking at this in more detail, it looks like the original documentation was 
printed on the NEC Spinwriter with a special font and ribbon. The formatting 
program was something we built, it was related to the typesetter version but 
that might have been a bit later.

The 3.3 update seems to have been printed on a lousy dot matrix printer, 
probably whatever we were using at the time. That's why I scanned a sample 
of each. The 3.3 update seems to be an MS-DOS version, unfortunately (it 
talks about 8087 at one point); for the most part those were the same but 
there is probably some CP/M specific stuff that's missing.

I haven't been able to get the HP scanning software to work reliably on our 
network, so I have to scan each page individually and e-mail it to myself. 
That works fine for things that are just a single page (like invoices) but 
gets real old for a large document. (There are about eight steps on the tiny 
touch screen of the printer for each page.) Not sure that it would be much 
easier even with the software, because I'd still have to go into the other 
room and change each page to be scanned (no feeder on this scanner).

                                      Randy.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: Janus Ada 1.5 Ada cp/m manuals
  2021-08-19  2:34     ` Randy Brukardt
@ 2021-08-20  5:25       ` Paul Rubin
  2021-08-20  8:33         ` Björn Lundin
  2021-08-20  7:58       ` Paul Rubin
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Paul Rubin @ 2021-08-20  5:25 UTC (permalink / raw)


"Randy Brukardt" <randy@rrsoftware.com> writes:
> room and change each page to be scanned (no feeder on this scanner).

It might be easier to just photograph all the pages with a phone.  That
would be harder to OCR than good quality scans, but at least it would
preserve the contents.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: Janus Ada 1.5 Ada cp/m manuals
  2021-08-19  2:34     ` Randy Brukardt
  2021-08-20  5:25       ` Paul Rubin
@ 2021-08-20  7:58       ` Paul Rubin
  2021-08-24 23:27         ` Randy Brukardt
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Paul Rubin @ 2021-08-20  7:58 UTC (permalink / raw)


"Randy Brukardt" <randy@rrsoftware.com> writes:
> it looks like the original documentation was printed on the NEC
> Spinwriter...  The 3.3 update seems to have been printed on a lousy
> dot matrix printer,

Any idea of the total number of pages involved?  The Spinwriter text is
quite readable and probably OCR-able, not counting the handwritten
notes.  The dot matrix update would be more difficult.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: Janus Ada 1.5 Ada cp/m manuals
  2021-08-20  5:25       ` Paul Rubin
@ 2021-08-20  8:33         ` Björn Lundin
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Björn Lundin @ 2021-08-20  8:33 UTC (permalink / raw)


Den 2021-08-20 kl. 07:25, skrev Paul Rubin:
> "Randy Brukardt" <randy@rrsoftware.com> writes:
>> room and change each page to be scanned (no feeder on this scanner).
> 
> It might be easier to just photograph all the pages with a phone.  That
> would be harder to OCR than good quality scans, but at least it would
> preserve the contents.
> 

Or film it while this device turns the pages?

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ir5ZanXy6nc>


-- 
Björn

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

* Re: Janus Ada 1.5 Ada cp/m manuals
  2021-08-20  7:58       ` Paul Rubin
@ 2021-08-24 23:27         ` Randy Brukardt
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Randy Brukardt @ 2021-08-24 23:27 UTC (permalink / raw)



"Paul Rubin" <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote in message 
news:87v940mttd.fsf@nightsong.com...
> "Randy Brukardt" <randy@rrsoftware.com> writes:
>> it looks like the original documentation was printed on the NEC
>> Spinwriter...  The 3.3 update seems to have been printed on a lousy
>> dot matrix printer,
>
> Any idea of the total number of pages involved?  The Spinwriter text is
> quite readable and probably OCR-able, not counting the handwritten
> notes.  The dot matrix update would be more difficult.

I can't easily tell; the pages are numbered by chapter (2-3, 4-5, 8-4, 
etc.). It's about 19 mm (using a ruler) of 24 lb paper (we printed these 
things to last), including 4 heavy dividers. So it's probably not a huge 
number. I guessed 200+ when I was trying to figure out how much time it 
would take me to deal with it.) BTW, some of the pages have yellow 
highlights as well. I don't think that would cause problems for an OCR, but 
I don't know.

Note that a lot of the manual is a basic outline of Ada; the original manual 
was created back in the early days of Ada when other material wasn't readily 
available. But it also includes details and limitations on the various 
features, which is interesting for a subset. So just skipping that material 
isn't a great idea.

                                             Randy.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2021-08-24 23:27 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 13+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2021-08-14 23:05 Janus Ada 1.5 Ada cp/m manuals Luke A. Guest
2021-08-17  7:23 ` Randy Brukardt
2021-08-17  9:03   ` Paul Rubin
2021-08-17  9:25     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2021-08-19  2:34     ` Randy Brukardt
2021-08-20  5:25       ` Paul Rubin
2021-08-20  8:33         ` Björn Lundin
2021-08-20  7:58       ` Paul Rubin
2021-08-24 23:27         ` Randy Brukardt
2021-08-17  9:16   ` Luke A. Guest
2021-08-17  9:28     ` Luke A. Guest
2021-08-17 10:10     ` Luke A. Guest
2021-08-18 20:05     ` Randy Brukardt

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