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* Carbon
@ 2022-07-22 21:13 Gautier write-only address
  2022-07-23  9:09 ` Carbon John McCabe
                   ` (3 more replies)
  0 siblings, 4 replies; 40+ messages in thread
From: Gautier write-only address @ 2022-07-22 21:13 UTC (permalink / raw)


Next attempt to replace C/C++ without really replacing it: Carbon!

You will notice, as usual, a few aspects borrowed from Ada - and one point inspired by Ada 83 (which was relaxed in a later Ada version) :-)

https://mybroadband.co.za/news/software/453410-googles-carbon-programming-language-aims-to-replace-c.html

https://devclass.com/2022/07/20/google-brands-carbon-language-as-experimental-successor-to-c/

https://9to5google.com/2022/07/19/carbon-programming-language-google-cpp/

https://thenewstack.io/google-launches-carbon-an-experimental-replacement-for-c/

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-07-22 21:13 Carbon Gautier write-only address
@ 2022-07-23  9:09 ` John McCabe
  2022-07-23 13:14 ` Carbon Dmitry A. Kazakov
                   ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  3 siblings, 0 replies; 40+ messages in thread
From: John McCabe @ 2022-07-23  9:09 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 22/07/2022 22:13, Gautier write-only address wrote:
>Next attempt to replace C/C++ without really replacing it: Carbon!
>
>You will notice, as usual, a few aspects borrowed from Ada - and one point inspired by Ada 83 (which was relaxed in a later Ada version) :-)
>

I read that stuff yesterday and, yet again, shook my head in disbelief :-(

The bit where I laughed was where it was claimed that C++ is building
 technical debt because it's not changing quickly enough; C++ is currently a
 mess because it's changing too quickly! Half-baked, and half-implemented
 ideas are going into 'standards' in the full knowledge that they'll change
 again in the next one. Even g++ doesn't provide 100% support for C++17
 (https://gcc.gnu.org/projects/cxx-status.html#cxx17)!

Carbon is likely to be even worse; every 'new' language that promises the
 earth, without being designed in a rigorous way, ends up with the same
 problems. Java - I started playing with that in the 90s and got frustrated
 that every update brought more and more depreciation warnings in. Python -
 2.x -> 3.0 was a massive jump (and took years to gain traction) because the
 'designers' just hadn't done a very good job to start with! Rust? Mmm

As for the 'reuse C++ syntax'; why the obsession with that? C++ syntax is
 really bad! (Semantics, in some cases, are another level - how many
 languages need a book like "C++ Gotchas"?!).

Aaaaarrrrgghhh! 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-07-22 21:13 Carbon Gautier write-only address
  2022-07-23  9:09 ` Carbon John McCabe
@ 2022-07-23 13:14 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
  2022-07-23 13:49   ` Carbon Stéphane Rivière
  2022-07-24  9:09 ` Carbon Jeffrey R.Carter
  2022-07-24  9:38 ` Carbon Luke A. Guest
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 40+ messages in thread
From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2022-07-23 13:14 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 2022-07-22 23:13, Gautier write-only address wrote:
> Next attempt to replace C/C++ without really replacing it: Carbon!

We have just learned how dangerous is carbon for our climate. Yet these 
few privileged keep on pumping it up! (:-))

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-07-23 13:14 ` Carbon Dmitry A. Kazakov
@ 2022-07-23 13:49   ` Stéphane Rivière
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 40+ messages in thread
From: Stéphane Rivière @ 2022-07-23 13:49 UTC (permalink / raw)



> We have just learned how dangerous is carbon for our climate. Yet these 
> few privileged keep on pumping it up! (:-))

Carbon language bad, green language good

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-07-22 21:13 Carbon Gautier write-only address
  2022-07-23  9:09 ` Carbon John McCabe
  2022-07-23 13:14 ` Carbon Dmitry A. Kazakov
@ 2022-07-24  9:09 ` Jeffrey R.Carter
  2022-07-24  9:22   ` Carbon Dmitry A. Kazakov
  2022-07-24  9:38 ` Carbon Luke A. Guest
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 40+ messages in thread
From: Jeffrey R.Carter @ 2022-07-24  9:09 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 2022-07-22 23:13, Gautier write-only address wrote:
> Next attempt to replace C/C++ without really replacing it: Carbon!

Wouldn't this be an attempted replacement for Google's previous attempt to 
replace C-family languages, Go?

-- 
Jeff Carter
"Blessed is just about anyone with a vested interest in the status quo."
Monty Python's Life of Brian
73

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-07-24  9:09 ` Carbon Jeffrey R.Carter
@ 2022-07-24  9:22   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 40+ messages in thread
From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2022-07-24  9:22 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 2022-07-24 11:09, Jeffrey R.Carter wrote:
> On 2022-07-22 23:13, Gautier write-only address wrote:
>> Next attempt to replace C/C++ without really replacing it: Carbon!
> 
> Wouldn't this be an attempted replacement for Google's previous attempt 
> to replace C-family languages, Go?

Golang appeared too much goolang ... (:-))

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-07-22 21:13 Carbon Gautier write-only address
                   ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2022-07-24  9:09 ` Carbon Jeffrey R.Carter
@ 2022-07-24  9:38 ` Luke A. Guest
  2022-07-26 17:31   ` Carbon John McCabe
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 40+ messages in thread
From: Luke A. Guest @ 2022-07-24  9:38 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 22/07/2022 22:13, Gautier write-only address wrote:
> Next attempt to replace C/C++ without really replacing it: Carbon!

Saw this last week and immediately thought they'd failed on one of their 
"design goals," i.e. to be "readable.

> You will notice, as usual, a few aspects borrowed from Ada - and one point inspired by Ada 83 (which was relaxed in a later Ada version) :-)

What did they take from Ada?

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-07-24  9:38 ` Carbon Luke A. Guest
@ 2022-07-26 17:31   ` John McCabe
  2022-07-27  8:10     ` Carbon Luke A. Guest
                       ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 40+ messages in thread
From: John McCabe @ 2022-07-26 17:31 UTC (permalink / raw)


On Sunday, 24 July 2022 at 10:41:00 UTC+1, Luke A. Guest wrote:
> On 22/07/2022 22:13, Gautier write-only address wrote: 
> > Next attempt to replace C/C++ without really replacing it: Carbon!
> Saw this last week and immediately thought they'd failed on one of their 
> "design goals," i.e. to be "readable.
> > You will notice, as usual, a few aspects borrowed from Ada - and one point inspired by Ada 83 (which was relaxed in a later Ada version) :-)
> What did they take from Ada?

Certainly not the approach to making life easier and less error-prone for developers.

I've got involved in a couple of discussions on their forum, and I'm inclined to think they just want C++ but taken out of the control of ISO/IEC WGs steering committees.

They're pretty much not considering changing any of the aspects of C++ that make it such a heap of junk (IMO, of course), including, but not limited to:

1. arrays
2. enums
3. (both of the above when used together :-))
4. symbols - overuse, duplication, inconsistency
5. implicit stuff
6. pretend strong typing
7. forcing developers to deal manually with numeric values that don't fit into an n-byte range, where n is a whole number

It really is shockingly soul-destroying watching all that. What's worse is that, from what I've seen over the years, the new languages that have been developed in a more 'relaxed' way than Ada (well, evolved, really, like Java, Python etc) and have become relatively successful have taken a good 10 years or so to get to that point, yet the discussions on the Carbon forum are all about how to appeal to _current_ developers who're used to C++; not _future_ developers who, ideally, would _never_ be used to C++!

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-07-26 17:31   ` Carbon John McCabe
@ 2022-07-27  8:10     ` Luke A. Guest
  2022-07-27 17:24       ` Carbon John McCabe
  2022-07-27  8:45     ` Carbon Luke A. Guest
  2022-07-27 13:16     ` Carbon Patrick Georgi
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 40+ messages in thread
From: Luke A. Guest @ 2022-07-27  8:10 UTC (permalink / raw)



On 26/07/2022 18:31, John McCabe wrote:

> Certainly not the approach to making life easier and less error-prone for developers.

Quel surprise!

> I've got involved in a couple of discussions on their forum, and I'm inclined to think they just want C++ but taken out of the control of ISO/IEC WGs steering committees.
> 
> They're pretty much not considering changing any of the aspects of C++ that make it such a heap of junk (IMO, of course), including, but not limited to:

Doesn't surprise me, they never do. Every "I've built a new language to 
replace C or C++ and it's better" implement things the exact same way 
every time.

> 1. arrays
> 2. enums
> 3. (both of the above when used together :-))
> 4. symbols - overuse, duplication, inconsistency
> 5. implicit stuff
> 6. pretend strong typing
> 7. forcing developers to deal manually with numeric values that don't fit into an n-byte range, where n is a whole number
> 
> It really is shockingly soul-destroying watching all that. What's worse is that, from what I've seen over the years, the new languages that have been developed in a more 'relaxed' way than Ada (well, evolved, really, like Java, Python etc) and have become relatively successful have taken a good 10 years or so to get to that point, yet the discussions on the Carbon forum are all about how to appeal to _current_ developers who're used to C++; not _future_ developers who, ideally, would _never_ be used to C++!
> 

It's depressing dealing with cretin's who all think they're geniuses and 
think that their new idea is so radically different, but is just the 
same old crap wrapped up in a functional style.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-07-26 17:31   ` Carbon John McCabe
  2022-07-27  8:10     ` Carbon Luke A. Guest
@ 2022-07-27  8:45     ` Luke A. Guest
  2022-07-27 13:16     ` Carbon Patrick Georgi
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 40+ messages in thread
From: Luke A. Guest @ 2022-07-27  8:45 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 26/07/2022 18:31, John McCabe wrote:

> 1. arrays
> 2. enums
> 3. (both of the above when used together :-))
> 4. symbols - overuse, duplication, inconsistency
> 5. implicit stuff
> 6. pretend strong typing
> 7. forcing developers to deal manually with numeric values that don't fit into an n-byte range, where n is a whole number

Oh and, no surprise to me at all...

8. They included pointers with . and ->

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-07-26 17:31   ` Carbon John McCabe
  2022-07-27  8:10     ` Carbon Luke A. Guest
  2022-07-27  8:45     ` Carbon Luke A. Guest
@ 2022-07-27 13:16     ` Patrick Georgi
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 40+ messages in thread
From: Patrick Georgi @ 2022-07-27 13:16 UTC (permalink / raw)


Am 26.07.2022 um 19:31 schrieb John McCabe:
> It really is shockingly soul-destroying watching all that. What's worse is that, from what I've seen over the years, the new languages that have been developed in a more 'relaxed' way than Ada (well, evolved, really, like Java, Python etc) and have become relatively successful have taken a good 10 years or so to get to that point, yet the discussions on the Carbon forum are all about how to appeal to _current_ developers who're used to C++; not _future_ developers who, ideally, would _never_ be used to C++!

"if you can use Rust or any other established programming language, you 
should" is what the Carbon developers say about their own language in 
their FAQ at 
https://github.com/carbon-language/carbon-lang/blob/trunk/docs/project/faq.md#if-you-can-use-rust-ignore-carbon

That language seems to have a pretty specific scope that may best be 
summed up as "make C++ into the next Cobol" - that is, probably still 
used in 60 years in ever more specialized niches while everybody else 
moved to greener pastures a long time ago.

As such, future developers who never used C++ aren't the target audience.


Patrick

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-07-27  8:10     ` Carbon Luke A. Guest
@ 2022-07-27 17:24       ` John McCabe
  2022-07-27 20:00         ` Carbon Luke A. Guest
  2022-07-27 20:39         ` Carbon Simon Wright
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 40+ messages in thread
From: John McCabe @ 2022-07-27 17:24 UTC (permalink / raw)


On Wed, 27 Jul 2022 09:10:10 +0100, Luke A. Guest wrote:

> On 26/07/2022 18:31, John McCabe wrote:
> 
<..snip..>

>> It really is shockingly soul-destroying watching all that. What's worse
>> is that, from what I've seen over the years, the new languages that
>> have been developed in a more 'relaxed' way than Ada (well, evolved,
>> really, like Java, Python etc) and have become relatively successful
>> have taken a good 10 years or so to get to that point, yet the
>> discussions on the Carbon forum are all about how to appeal to
>> _current_ developers who're used to C++; not _future_ developers who,
>> ideally, would _never_ be used to C++!
>> 
>> 
> It's depressing dealing with cretin's who all think they're geniuses and
> think that their new idea is so radically different, but is just the
> same old crap wrapped up in a functional style.

LOL - yeah, tell me about it. In this thread that I mentioned (https://
github.com/carbon-language/carbon-lang/discussions/1720), I pointed out a 
few things that I'm unhappy with in C++ that, in Ada, are "solved" and 
have been for decades. The result is that someone who appears to have 
very little software development experience misinterpreted the comments 
about half-baked features and locked the thread.

Peter Njeim, however, gave me a bit of support and had a moan about it 
which, via email, allowed me to respond. Now, I'm not one for a quick 
email when I can write an epic, so my response was suitably measured and 
thorough in its justification of the "half-baked" comment, and related to 
a comment that was in the email from Kate Gregory who appears to have 
issues understanding usage of terms within specific contexts. It took me 
ages to write and, basically, the recipient was the upholders of the 
"Carbon Language Code of Conduct" (in particular, the fore-mentioned Ms. 
Gregory).

Now, personally, if I were in a position where I was tasked to uphold a 
code of conduct whose aims were to provide a welcoming forum, and not 
being nasty to people, my response to this would NOT be:

> "Please stop. Our moderators are empowered to decide if conduct is
> within our norms our not. The conduct team acts as a check to ensure
> they are correct. We have thoroughly reviewed and agree all the
> moderators involved in this are correct."

While the hypocrisy left me almost speechless, I did have to laugh :-)

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-07-27 17:24       ` Carbon John McCabe
@ 2022-07-27 20:00         ` Luke A. Guest
  2022-07-28 23:48           ` Carbon Nasser M. Abbasi
  2022-07-27 20:39         ` Carbon Simon Wright
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 40+ messages in thread
From: Luke A. Guest @ 2022-07-27 20:00 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 27/07/2022 18:24, John McCabe wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Jul 2022 09:10:10 +0100, Luke A. Guest wrote:
>> It's depressing dealing with cretin's who all think they're geniuses and
>> think that their new idea is so radically different, but is just the
>> same old crap wrapped up in a functional style.
> 
> LOL - yeah, tell me about it. In this thread that I mentioned (https://
> github.com/carbon-language/carbon-lang/discussions/1720), I pointed out a

Jesus! "Aggressive" my arse and don't "insult C++" otherwise they may cry.

You made valid points. Points I've made before only to be ganged up on. 
These "people" just aren't worth dealing with imo. I wish more company's 
would dump c++, but they won't. I've even started reading, a while back 
and not finished yet, a java book, *spit*, at least there's no pointer crap.

> few things that I'm unhappy with in C++ that, in Ada, are "solved" and
> have been for decades. The result is that someone who appears to have

Yup.

> very little software development experience misinterpreted the comments
> about half-baked features and locked the thread.

The only language I've seen which is a replacement for C, but is really 
Pascal underneath is Odin ("Pascal in a C dress," Ginger Bill). But even 
that doesn't really add much in the way of syntax sugar, it's quite 
basic like Go.

> Now, personally, if I were in a position where I was tasked to uphold a
> code of conduct whose aims were to provide a welcoming forum, and not
> being nasty to people, my response to this would NOT be:
> 
>> "Please stop. Our moderators are empowered to decide if conduct is
>> within our norms our not. The conduct team acts as a check to ensure
>> they are correct. We have thoroughly reviewed and agree all the
>> moderators involved in this are correct."

Exactly.

> While the hypocrisy left me almost speechless, I did have to laugh :-)

Sounds like an echo chamber where they all agree that c++ has had it's 
day, but they still want c++ so are remaking it their way and their way 
is the only way. Can't say I'll be using it.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-07-27 17:24       ` Carbon John McCabe
  2022-07-27 20:00         ` Carbon Luke A. Guest
@ 2022-07-27 20:39         ` Simon Wright
  2022-07-27 23:30           ` Carbon John McCabe
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 40+ messages in thread
From: Simon Wright @ 2022-07-27 20:39 UTC (permalink / raw)


John McCabe <john@nospam.mccabe.org.uk> writes:

> In this thread that I mentioned (https://
> github.com/carbon-language/carbon-lang/discussions/1720), I pointed
> out a few things that I'm unhappy with in C++ that, in Ada, are
> "solved" and have been for decades.

"Avoid keyword duplication"?? e.g. multiple uses of 'with'?

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-07-27 20:39         ` Carbon Simon Wright
@ 2022-07-27 23:30           ` John McCabe
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 40+ messages in thread
From: John McCabe @ 2022-07-27 23:30 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 27/07/2022 21:39, Simon Wright wrote:
>John McCabe <john@nospam.mccabe.org.uk> writes:
>
>> In this thread that I mentioned (https://
>> github.com/carbon-language/carbon-lang/discussions/1720), I pointed
>> out a few things that I'm unhappy with in C++ that, in Ada, are
>> "solved" and have been for decades.
>
>"Avoid keyword duplication"?? e.g. multiple uses of 'with'?


Come on Simon, give me a break; you know exceptions are allowed :-)

I'm obviously referring to virtual, static, & and * (sure I mentioned
 symbols somewhere too :-) 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-07-27 20:00         ` Carbon Luke A. Guest
@ 2022-07-28 23:48           ` Nasser M. Abbasi
  2022-07-29  4:34             ` Carbon Devin Rozsas
                               ` (4 more replies)
  0 siblings, 5 replies; 40+ messages in thread
From: Nasser M. Abbasi @ 2022-07-28 23:48 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 7/27/2022 3:00 PM, Luke A. Guest wrote:
> On 27/07/2022 18:24, John McCabe wrote:

>> few things that I'm unhappy with in C++ that, in Ada, are "solved" and
>> have been for decades. The result is that someone who appears to have
> 
> Yup.
> 

Since Ada has solved these problems long time ago, then
why are people still re-inenting the wheel? Why are they not just
using Ada? Ada is free software.

May be there is something in Ada that preventing it from being
widely adopted and used?

May be people just like { } instead of Begin, End?

I personally like begin/end much more that { } as it is more
clear.

Or may be there is something else going on.

--Nasser

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-07-28 23:48           ` Carbon Nasser M. Abbasi
@ 2022-07-29  4:34             ` Devin Rozsas
  2022-07-29 11:03             ` Carbon John McCabe
                               ` (3 subsequent siblings)
  4 siblings, 0 replies; 40+ messages in thread
From: Devin Rozsas @ 2022-07-29  4:34 UTC (permalink / raw)


> May be there is something in Ada that preventing it from being 
> widely adopted and used? 

Probably the fact that there's only one decent free and open-source implementation of Ada 2012 (GNAT)?

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-07-28 23:48           ` Carbon Nasser M. Abbasi
  2022-07-29  4:34             ` Carbon Devin Rozsas
@ 2022-07-29 11:03             ` John McCabe
  2022-07-29 19:05               ` Carbon Gautier write-only address
  2022-07-30  8:11               ` Carbon G.B.
  2022-07-29 18:59             ` Carbon Gautier write-only address
                               ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  4 siblings, 2 replies; 40+ messages in thread
From: John McCabe @ 2022-07-29 11:03 UTC (permalink / raw)


On Thu, 28 Jul 2022 18:48:49 -0500, Nasser M. Abbasi wrote:

> On 7/27/2022 3:00 PM, Luke A. Guest wrote:
>> On 27/07/2022 18:24, John McCabe wrote:
> 
>>> few things that I'm unhappy with in C++ that, in Ada, are "solved" and
>>> have been for decades. The result is that someone who appears to have
>> 
>> Yup.
>> 
>> 
> Since Ada has solved these problems long time ago, then why are people
> still re-inenting the wheel? Why are they not just using Ada? Ada is
> free software.

Possibly for the same reason that I was so anti-Ada in my early years; it 
takes getting used to and people are lazy.

Looking at some of the languages that have come out in recent years, it's 
obvious that people can't be bothered to type much; "fn"/"def" (or, even, 
nothing!) instead of "function"/"procedure", "{"/"}" instead of 
"begin"/"end", "&&" instead of "and", "||" instead of "or" (!!!) etc.

From what I can see, some of the "moderators" on that Carbon group don't 
have much real professional software development experience, so I suspect 
they really have no clue about what they could achieve with Ada, and have 
little understanding of some of the contraints that embedded, especially 
bare-metal, systems impose on what you can and can't include in a 
program. I'm thinking here of things like heap-unfriendly container 
classes, such as (in Swift) arrays that are automatically expandable when 
you append a new item, rather than being fixed size etc.

There also seems to be a bit of an obsession with the time between "empty 
editor window" and "executable available", rather than "empty editor 
window" and "executable that actually does what you want"!

Also, as Devin says, compiler availability is an issue, from the point of 
view of actually _using_ Ada.

However, from the point of view of creating a new language, the fact that 
so many people clearly think it _has_ to be the C/C++ way is quite 
disturbing, especially since, as I think I mentioned, it's going to be a 
number of years until any new language really makes its mark, so new 
languages should be taking future developers into account, not just 
pandering to the laziness of existing ones!

At this point I think I should make it clear that, although I think Ada 
has some great features (and I regularly espouse them amongst my 
colleagues), I don't use Ada in the software I'm developing. I'd like to, 
but it would take me a lot of time to get back to a level in Ada where 
I'd be comfortable creating a relatively substantial codebase from 
scratch. The alternative would be to go and join a team that's already 
using Ada, but every Ada job I've seen come up locally is to support code 
that was written in Ada 95; I'd rather be looking at Ada 2005 -> if I was 
to make that jump.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-07-28 23:48           ` Carbon Nasser M. Abbasi
  2022-07-29  4:34             ` Carbon Devin Rozsas
  2022-07-29 11:03             ` Carbon John McCabe
@ 2022-07-29 18:59             ` Gautier write-only address
  2022-07-30  4:26               ` Carbon Nasser M. Abbasi
  2022-07-30  9:21               ` Carbon John McCabe
  2022-07-30  1:40             ` Carbon Paul Rubin
  2022-08-06 14:18             ` Carbon dennis knorr
  4 siblings, 2 replies; 40+ messages in thread
From: Gautier write-only address @ 2022-07-29 18:59 UTC (permalink / raw)


Le vendredi 29 juillet 2022 à 01:48:58 UTC+2, Nasser M. Abbasi a écrit :

> May be people just like { } instead of Begin, End? 

It's a misconception: the "begin" keyword in Ada appears only at the beginning of a body, or for a block statement.
You are confusing with Pascal where the "begin .. end" pair is the equivalent of C's {}'s.
And yes, this aspect of Pascal's syntax is cumbersome, especially with the "if" and "case" statements:
"if x then begin s; t end else begin u; v end".
Spread on several lines and indented, it makes overly long and verbose statements.
Nevertheless it didn't prevent Pascal to be very popular at some periods in time.

> Or may be there is something else going on. 

The main issue is: out of the dozens of languages around, how can someone guess that language X has solved Y's issues?
It is especially difficult in companies, where people who make language choices often don't program themselves.

IMHO the only way to make Ada more popular is to create popular applications with it.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-07-29 11:03             ` Carbon John McCabe
@ 2022-07-29 19:05               ` Gautier write-only address
  2022-07-30  9:16                 ` Carbon John McCabe
  2022-07-30  8:11               ` Carbon G.B.
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 40+ messages in thread
From: Gautier write-only address @ 2022-07-29 19:05 UTC (permalink / raw)


Le vendredi 29 juillet 2022 à 13:03:39 UTC+2, John McCabe a écrit :

> The alternative would be to go and join a team that's already 
> using Ada, but every Ada job I've seen come up locally is to support code 
> that was written in Ada 95; I'd rather be looking at Ada 2005 -> if I was 
> to make that jump.

It should not be a problem, since each version of Ada is compatible with the previous one.
You can bring in whatever new feature is supported, especially in new packages or projects.
It's only a problem if your boss requires to stick with Ada 95.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-07-28 23:48           ` Carbon Nasser M. Abbasi
                               ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2022-07-29 18:59             ` Carbon Gautier write-only address
@ 2022-07-30  1:40             ` Paul Rubin
  2022-07-30  4:23               ` Carbon Nasser M. Abbasi
  2022-08-06 14:18             ` Carbon dennis knorr
  4 siblings, 1 reply; 40+ messages in thread
From: Paul Rubin @ 2022-07-30  1:40 UTC (permalink / raw)


"Nasser M. Abbasi" <nma@12000.org> writes:
> Or may be there is something else going on.

It seems to me that it simply takes a lot more code (not just
keystrokes) to do anything in Ada, compared to other languages.  Having
two files (ADS and ADB) for every module is already a nuisance.

I think there is also a very big gap between beginner-level Ada and
production-level Ada, and it's not very obvious how to bridge the gap.
C++ has tons of online docs and you can learn what you need to
gradually.  Plus it is easier to navigate C++'s library ecosystem.
Alire(sp?) may help with that for Ada.  I haven't used it yet.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-07-30  1:40             ` Carbon Paul Rubin
@ 2022-07-30  4:23               ` Nasser M. Abbasi
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 40+ messages in thread
From: Nasser M. Abbasi @ 2022-07-30  4:23 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 7/29/2022 8:40 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> "Nasser M. Abbasi" <nma@12000.org> writes:
>> Or may be there is something else going on.
> 
> It seems to me that it simply takes a lot more code (not just
> keystrokes) to do anything in Ada, compared to other languages.  Having
> two files (ADS and ADB) for every module is already a nuisance.
> 

Isn't this similar in a way to C/C++ with their header files all
over the place? Also in modern Fortran, each module Fortran .f file will
have an associated .mod file generated that goes with it (used by
other modules to interface to it).

I think having the implementation in one file and the interface in
separate file is good.

Otherwise, if they are both in same physical file and one changes
say the implementation only, causing the time stamp on the file to
change, then hard to know later if one changed the implementation part
or the interface part in the file by looking at timestamps of
files that changed (make will not know also, so it thinks both changed).

Also having separate file for interface and implementation,
allows others to program against the interface file, while someone at same
time changing the implementation file without each getting in each others way.

> I think there is also a very big gap between beginner-level Ada and
> production-level Ada, and it's not very obvious how to bridge the gap.
> C++ has tons of online docs and you can learn what you need to
> gradually.  Plus it is easier to navigate C++'s library ecosystem.
> Alire(sp?) may help with that for Ada.  I haven't used it yet.

--Nasser

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-07-29 18:59             ` Carbon Gautier write-only address
@ 2022-07-30  4:26               ` Nasser M. Abbasi
  2022-07-30  9:21               ` Carbon John McCabe
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 40+ messages in thread
From: Nasser M. Abbasi @ 2022-07-30  4:26 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 7/29/2022 1:59 PM, Gautier write-only address wrote:

> IMHO the only way to make Ada more popular is to create popular applications with it.

Agree.

But this is big catch 22.

There are no  popular apps written in Ada because not too many
programmers use it, and there are not many programmers who use it
because there are no popoluar apps written in it.

--Nasser

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-07-29 11:03             ` Carbon John McCabe
  2022-07-29 19:05               ` Carbon Gautier write-only address
@ 2022-07-30  8:11               ` G.B.
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 40+ messages in thread
From: G.B. @ 2022-07-30  8:11 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 29.07.22 13:03, John McCabe wrote:

> Looking at some of the languages that have come out in recent years, it's
> obvious that people can't be bothered to type much; "fn"/"def" (or, even,
> nothing!) instead of "function"/"procedure", "{"/"}" instead of
> "begin"/"end", "&&" instead of "and", "||" instead of "or" (!!!) etc.

Continued emphasis of syntax differences and then not paying proper
respect to what is empirically attractive to so many prospects
will miss an important point. Not about flies. About customers.
Without customers, there will be no products.

Such as,
>  From what I can see, some of the "moderators" on that Carbon group don't
> have much real (...)

What moderators seem to have, though, is quite real. It is a task,
they are heading a group and they need to process input from an Adaist
in this many faceted situation, and consider the implications.
Also the implications of their response.

> I suspect
> they really have no clue about what they could achieve with Ada, 

Why would Alphabet Inc. want to achieve an entirely different goal,
viz. use Ada? Maybe reuse Ada.
Given the many years and the many $ it has taken to produce Ada
and Ada products, this fact surely has meant business at some point.
Why would anyone not learn from that past opportunity and start
a language from scratch?

To become an asset in this productive process, by way of expressing
a positive attitude and offering economically useful contributions
might be a way of influencing the programming language.

> However, from the point of view of creating a new language, the fact that
> so many people clearly think it _has_ to be the C/C++ way is quite
> disturbing, especially since, as I think I mentioned, it's going to be a
> number of years until any new language really makes its mark, so new
> languages should be taking future developers into account, not just
> pandering to the laziness of existing ones!

If your job is to help create return on investment, such as investment into
a programming language, then how is it economical to not pander to the
expectations of potential customers? Customers who might otherwise
want to use Rust, say?

(Does someone know a way of making entrepreneurs not just aware of how
each of them is milked by software industry giants, but also a way out
for each of them individually?)

Scala, by way of illustration, now has almost all language features
that Oracle Inc. will be adding to Java in the coming years,
as I'm sure they know. Scala isn't associated with the same marketing
skills, though.

Scala might also be using syntax that is considered boring and
dated, using many keywords, but I'm not entirely sure, in particular
after they changed it for version 3...

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-07-29 19:05               ` Carbon Gautier write-only address
@ 2022-07-30  9:16                 ` John McCabe
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 40+ messages in thread
From: John McCabe @ 2022-07-30  9:16 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 29/07/2022 20:05, Gautier write-only address wrote:
>Le vendredi 29 juillet 2022 à 13:03:39 UTC+2, John McCabe a écrit :
>
>> The alternative would be to go and join a team that's already 
>> using Ada, but every Ada job I've seen come up locally is to support code 
>> that was written in Ada 95; I'd rather be looking at Ada 2005 -> if I was 
>> to make that jump.
>
>It should not be a problem, since each version of Ada is compatible with the previous one.
>You can bring in whatever new feature is supported, especially in new packages or projects.
>It's only a problem if your boss requires to stick with Ada 95.

It's the latter; it mostly appears to be jobs that have a contractual need
 to use the same compiler that was used to develop the original code 20
 years ago, as it's known, certified etc. 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-07-29 18:59             ` Carbon Gautier write-only address
  2022-07-30  4:26               ` Carbon Nasser M. Abbasi
@ 2022-07-30  9:21               ` John McCabe
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 40+ messages in thread
From: John McCabe @ 2022-07-30  9:21 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 29/07/2022 19:59, Gautier write-only address wrote:

<.. Snip.. >

>The main issue is: out of the dozens of languages around, how can someone
>guess that language X has solved Y's issues?

Well, AIUI, that _was_ the point of my intervention in the Carbon
 discussions, but it appears that, as it didn't fit their narrative, it
 wasn't welcomed. 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-07-28 23:48           ` Carbon Nasser M. Abbasi
                               ` (3 preceding siblings ...)
  2022-07-30  1:40             ` Carbon Paul Rubin
@ 2022-08-06 14:18             ` dennis knorr
  2022-08-06 17:48               ` Carbon A.J.
  2022-08-07  9:08               ` Carbon G.B.
  4 siblings, 2 replies; 40+ messages in thread
From: dennis knorr @ 2022-08-06 14:18 UTC (permalink / raw)


Am 29.07.22 um 01:48 schrieb Nasser M. Abbasi:

> May be there is something in Ada that preventing it from being
> widely adopted and used?

An opinion from bystander who wants to like Ada, this is only after i
looked the resources and the community up a bit two years ago again. you
do not have to agree, it's just my experience and sometimes gut feeling.

* Bad to no marketing
* sometimes elitism by members of the community/Ada fans
* no modern feeling toolchain (Even Lazarus+Pascal or Gambas has a more
modern feeling toolchain, and that says alot)
* not much free software built with it
* not much free software for the toolchain available
* not much libraries which are ready and easy to use as a beginner
* no modern/up2date books and articles (especially in other languages
than in english) seem to be available.
* the free Ada Compiler seems slow and a while back it generates
relatively big binaries and the result was not very fast.

Just a few concrete examples to back that up:
* Is there a web playground or repl shell trying or learning/trying Ada
or some of its prominent modules?
* There's no modern book in german about modern Ada and its libraries
* There's no syntaxhighlighting package in vim for ada
* No exercises like for example Ruby Koans
* It *Looks* like there are no libraries which make it easy use Ada for
programming (think json/document formats, http/mail/mime protocols,
algorithms or cryptography libraries)


I know there are libraries out there, but they are hard to find, not
promoted/marketed and i saw developers (also in other languages, i admit
that) talking like, if you do not understand it, you should go back to
toylanguages like python.

i also know that not all bulletpoints above are really true to the
fullest, but most of them from the outside look like it and also have at
least some grain of truth in there.

If someone would write a book in german, how to write Ada and use
$cryptolibrary, $networklibrary and how to integrate it in ones favorite
development software, this surely would be very interesting too many.

The ONLY thing where i see Ada Marketing in the free software world is
FOSDEM. But it is in its own Room. Ada people would need to go out and
say: hey, look we also can do good stuff, look, an https server with
letsencrypt support with library in 30 lines..

To be honest, i am curious how the community here will react on it. I
mean, i got the Book "Programming in Ada 2005" as a present and i liked
it, but after reading the introduction (first 2-3 chapters i think) back
then (was like over 15 years ago) i saw no libraries which i can use.
and i was not that big a programmer to write them myself.

Jm2c,
Dennis

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-08-06 14:18             ` Carbon dennis knorr
@ 2022-08-06 17:48               ` A.J.
  2022-08-07  9:08               ` Carbon G.B.
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 40+ messages in thread
From: A.J. @ 2022-08-06 17:48 UTC (permalink / raw)


On Saturday, August 6, 2022 at 10:18:17 AM UTC-4, dennis knorr wrote:
<.. snip ..>
I agree with you on some of these points.  Ada never seemed to be big on marketing, at least outside of specific niches, and from a learning & resources aspect, it took me reading Barnes' Programming in Ada 2012 cover-to-cover to properly grok the language.  With that being said, things have been changing a lot in the last two years.

https://learn.adacore.com is a decent resource in that it gives you little ada interpreter with code snippets you can test out yourself right in the browser.  It's not exactly a "web playground or repl shell" but it's pretty good and seems to support the standard library.

From a library and tooling standpoint, I would check out Alire.  It takes a matter of minutes to get from not having any ada compilers installed at all to compiling your own hello example and there's a lot of libraries already supported ( https://alire.ada.dev/crates.html ).  To bring, for example, Gnatcoll_sqlite, into your project, you would simply just type "alr with gnatcoll_sqlite" while in that directory.

Here's a quick start that I wrote up for my friends:
----
1: Download alire for your OS (e.g. on Windows it's "alr-*-installer-x86_64-windows.exe"): https://github.com/alire-project/alire/releases
2: After installing, run the "Alire" program
3: Once you're in the Alire command prompt, type alr and then hit "enter", and it'll install everything you need (e.g. on Windows, it'll install msys2)
4: To grab an example project that you can install and run, type "alr get hello", and it'll automatically fetch the "hello world" package.
5: Go to that newly added project's folder with command "cd hello" and enter.
6: Build and run the project by typing "alr run"
7: Alire will automatically download and install the ada compiler and everything.  You'll get a prompt asking what toolchains to use, just hit the enter key twice to select the defaults.
To create anything new in Alire, just type "alr init --bin myproj" and it'll create a new project that you can start programming in a project named  "myproj". (if it asks for your github info, you can just leave it blank).
More info here https://alire.ada.dev/docs/#first-steps
----

Then of course there's the awesome-ada repository that has some nice resources, albeit they seem to mostly be in English: https://github.com/ohenley/awesome-ada

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-08-06 14:18             ` Carbon dennis knorr
  2022-08-06 17:48               ` Carbon A.J.
@ 2022-08-07  9:08               ` G.B.
  2022-08-08 21:38                 ` Carbon dennis knorr
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 40+ messages in thread
From: G.B. @ 2022-08-07  9:08 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 06.08.22 16:18, dennis knorr wrote:

> * There's no modern book in german about modern Ada and its libraries

What's the competition, considering C#, Swift, Java or C?
I.e., an original work written by a German author, bought
and studied by many?
There used to be a number of books on Ada written in German when
the market had developed ideas of a government mandate, the ideas
producing corresponding opportunities.


> * There's no syntaxhighlighting package in vim for ada

:syntax enable

(Does vim feature in a modern feeling tool chain, though?)

> * No exercises like for example Ruby Koans
> * It *Looks* like there are no libraries which make it easy use Ada for
> programming (think json/document formats, http/mail/mime protocols,

AWS, GNATColl, $ alr with json.

> algorithms or cryptography libraries)

Just use one that you can trust. If you need it to be more Ada-ish,
ChaCha20 cipher and Poly1305 digest have just been mentioned a few
postings ago. If algorithms can address securing the entire computation...

There used to be the PAL, which is the Public Ada Library, easy to find.
A bit dated, and reflecting the hype back then, I guess.

I gather that, currently, and in the past, Ada tools are also focusing
on topics of embedded computers, a fairly large and attractive market.
JSON or MIME, perhaps even interpreters are present, but I think not
central to control stuff near sensors and actuators. How does one compute
deterministic responses before deadline using Node.js?


> If someone would write a book in german, how to write Ada and use
> $cryptolibrary, $networklibrary and how to integrate it in ones favorite
> development software, this surely would be very interesting too many.

Can you say how many? I imagine a publisher asking this question.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-08-07  9:08               ` Carbon G.B.
@ 2022-08-08 21:38                 ` dennis knorr
  2022-08-08 22:28                   ` Carbon Dmitry A. Kazakov
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 40+ messages in thread
From: dennis knorr @ 2022-08-08 21:38 UTC (permalink / raw)


Am 07.08.22 um 11:08 schrieb G.B.:
> On 06.08.22 16:18, dennis knorr wrote:
> 
>> * There's no modern book in german about modern Ada and its libraries
> 
> What's the competition, considering C#, Swift, Java or C?

from the absolute amount in english, these languages or python or rust
have more books. hell, even Raku has more books.

Python, Kotlin(!), C# have more german books and also more current ones.
I bet in five years from now there will be more german books about
Carbon than about ada, even if you include the old ones.

> I.e., an original work written by a German author, bought
> and studied by many?

and which is preferrably younger than 20 years.

> There used to be a number of books on Ada written in German when
> the market had developed ideas of a government mandate, the ideas
> producing corresponding opportunities.

Well, or people with knowledge could write books if they want to
distribute knowledge :)

>> * There's no syntaxhighlighting package in vim for ada
> 
> :syntax enable

okay, that i did not know.

> (Does vim feature in a modern feeling tool chain, though?)

Well, okay, intellij is called more modern of course or VSCode, but you
still can craft modern tooling onto vim and it works well.

>> * No exercises like for example Ruby Koans
>> * It *Looks* like there are no libraries which make it easy use Ada for
>> programming (think json/document formats, http/mail/mime protocols,
> 
> AWS, GNATColl, $ alr with json.

Well, yes. If you know them. Is there beginner documentation? and as i
said below my judgement is not entirely true, but for newbies to the
language it's not really visible.

>> algorithms or cryptography libraries)
> 
> Just use one that you can trust. If you need it to be more Ada-ish,
> ChaCha20 cipher and Poly1305 digest have just been mentioned a few
> postings ago. If algorithms can address securing the entire computation...

The deeper you dig with crypto the more problems you have. For example,
with TLS terminations, Chacha/salsa/Poly does not help you. Or you want
to interact with other data structures which implement AES with GCM or
you need cryptoprotocol elements for a KeyExchange, even without
implementing TLS?

Well, of course, i can use some C++ library, but first, debugging stuff
like that never worked well over language boundaries and i can "just use
C++" if i already use them.

> There used to be the PAL, which is the Public Ada Library, easy to find.
> A bit dated, and reflecting the hype back then, I guess.
> 
> I gather that, currently, and in the past, Ada tools are also focusing
> on topics of embedded computers, a fairly large and attractive market.
> JSON or MIME, perhaps even interpreters are present, but I think not
> central to control stuff near sensors and actuators. How does one compute
> deterministic responses before deadline using Node.js?

JSON or MIME are Dataformats. And it's not necessary throwing around
thinly veiled insults at other software ecosystems. He asked why Ada is
not more used or popular, i gave pointers, why people do not go to Ada,
but perhaps to Rust.

>> If someone would write a book in german, how to write Ada and use
>> $cryptolibrary, $networklibrary and how to integrate it in ones favorite
>> development software, this surely would be very interesting too many.
> 
> Can you say how many? I imagine a publisher asking this question.

That's a question most people who wrote books in the
$programming-language-books-section could not answer beforehand i guess.
and i mean, what is this question? Neither does it deconstruct my
argument, nor does it strengthen yours (if you have any). It sounds more
like the elitist perl programmers, who sneered at python because of the
REPL shell, that "a real language does not have or need a repl shell".
That was actually an opinion i read on IRC 6 years ago..

You do not have to like my opinion/experience/viewpoint but i really
would like to communicate that this exactly the reply i feared. not
because of the potential personal attack (which was not here), but
because of the elitist complacency. With attitudes like this, Ada will
only continue withering in the future.

No offense, jm2c and kind regards,
Dennis

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-08-08 21:38                 ` Carbon dennis knorr
@ 2022-08-08 22:28                   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
  2022-08-09  4:12                     ` Carbon Randy Brukardt
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 40+ messages in thread
From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2022-08-08 22:28 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 2022-08-08 23:38, dennis knorr wrote:
> Am 07.08.22 um 11:08 schrieb G.B.:

>> Just use one that you can trust. If you need it to be more Ada-ish,
>> ChaCha20 cipher and Poly1305 digest have just been mentioned a few
>> postings ago. If algorithms can address securing the entire computation...
> 
> The deeper you dig with crypto the more problems you have. For example,
> with TLS terminations, Chacha/salsa/Poly does not help you. Or you want
> to interact with other data structures which implement AES with GCM or
> you need cryptoprotocol elements for a KeyExchange, even without
> implementing TLS?

ChaCha20 is good in first place to avoid TLS. My motivation to implement 
ChaCha20 was for deterministic low latency zero traffic overhead secure 
network protocols.

If you want TLS, there are Ada bindings to both GNUTLS and OpenSSL.

I would not say that either GNUTLS or OpenSSL were well documented, but, 
hey, they are written in C, curly brackets, #ifdefs and void* magically 
explain everything for everybody! (:-))

>> I gather that, currently, and in the past, Ada tools are also focusing
>> on topics of embedded computers, a fairly large and attractive market.
>> JSON or MIME, perhaps even interpreters are present, but I think not
>> central to control stuff near sensors and actuators.

Actually the situation is so bad that not just JSON, even HTTP is 
actively used in embedded systems for data exchange today. The plague 
spreads fast...

>> How does one compute
>> deterministic responses before deadline using Node.js?

By deploying agile determined programmers... (:-))

> but
> because of the elitist complacency. With attitudes like this, Ada will
> only continue withering in the future.

No idea why you consider argumentation to technical issues elitist or 
insulting.

There is no way to use Ada without actually using it. Differently to 25 
or so years ago, today the entry barrier is basically zero. There is a 
free Ada compiler for every possible platform one can imagine for taking 
a start. There are lots of Ada libraries.

If you need something concrete, just ask here, somebody will always answer.

P.S. Nobody writes Ada books these days because they do not sell. If you 
want a book on some interesting, in your opinion, Ada topic, start a 
project on a fundraising site. If it manages to collect 100K, I am sure 
some of renown Ada writers will come to collect...

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-08-08 22:28                   ` Carbon Dmitry A. Kazakov
@ 2022-08-09  4:12                     ` Randy Brukardt
  2022-08-09  6:05                       ` Carbon Paul Rubin
                                         ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 40+ messages in thread
From: Randy Brukardt @ 2022-08-09  4:12 UTC (permalink / raw)


"Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> wrote in message 
news:tcs2mr$1o0u$1@gioia.aioe.org...
...
> P.S. Nobody writes Ada books these days because they do not sell.

Do *any* programming books really sell? If so, why? :-)

There are plenty of free, on-line resources for pretty much any programming 
language. Why pay for something you can get free?

When someone starts talking about books, I think they're a troll. I can 
understand complaints about having trouble finding stuff (although Google 
should find AdaIC.org pretty easily, it usually pretty high in Ada results, 
and most of the good stuff is linked from there), and lack of hype, and so 
on. But there's lots of good stuff if one looks (or asks here - if someone 
knows about here they're ready to use Ada).

AdaIC has an Ada-specific search engine which hopefully makes it easier to 
find Ada stuff than a general engine like Google.

                                         Randy.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-08-09  4:12                     ` Carbon Randy Brukardt
@ 2022-08-09  6:05                       ` Paul Rubin
  2022-08-09  7:22                       ` Carbon John McCabe
  2022-08-10  1:19                       ` Carbon John Perry
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 40+ messages in thread
From: Paul Rubin @ 2022-08-09  6:05 UTC (permalink / raw)


"Randy Brukardt" <randy@rrsoftware.com> writes:
> When someone starts talking about books, I think they're a troll. 

I don't know of any online Ada docs that I'd call helpful past the
beginner level (Ada Distilled).  Someone here recommended a book to me a
year or two ago and I bought a copy.  It looks good but has just been
sitting around waiting for me to read it.  I haven't done that because I
haven't had any occasion to mess with Ada, and have too many other
pending projects.  One of these days.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-08-09  4:12                     ` Carbon Randy Brukardt
  2022-08-09  6:05                       ` Carbon Paul Rubin
@ 2022-08-09  7:22                       ` John McCabe
  2022-08-10  1:19                       ` Carbon John Perry
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 40+ messages in thread
From: John McCabe @ 2022-08-09  7:22 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 09/08/2022 05:12, Randy Brukardt wrote:
>"Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> wrote in message 
>news:tcs2mr$1o0u$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>...
>> P.S. Nobody writes Ada books these days because they do not sell.
>
>Do *any* programming books really sell? If so, why? :-)
>
>There are plenty of free, on-line resources for pretty much any programming 
>language. Why pay for something you can get free?

FWIW, I may be 'old school', but I buy loads of programming books. That
 obviously doesn't qualify me to answer the question of whether "*any*
 programming books really sell", but the main reasons I like books are that
 they tend to be more constrained and cohesive than jumping around websites
 (at least, the decent ones are :-)). Also for those times when I want to
 flick back and forth between sections quickly, when I don't want to be
 staring at a screen and so on. One particular reason is that, unless I've
 actually got a block of free time to be experimenting with stuff, using a
 Web browser presents multiple, frustrating distractions, and it's often the
 case that an example of something you might want to do has no explanation
 about how it works (books, especially Ada As A Second Language, if I
 remember correctly, are generally fairly good at that bit), so that leads
 to more searching, more jumping about webpages and, nowadays, a helluva lot
 of stale and misleading information. 

So, basically, that's why I pay for books. 


-- 
Best Regards

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-08-09  4:12                     ` Carbon Randy Brukardt
  2022-08-09  6:05                       ` Carbon Paul Rubin
  2022-08-09  7:22                       ` Carbon John McCabe
@ 2022-08-10  1:19                       ` John Perry
  2022-08-10  6:20                         ` Carbon Paul Rubin
  2022-08-10  8:24                         ` Carbon Luke A. Guest
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 40+ messages in thread
From: John Perry @ 2022-08-10  1:19 UTC (permalink / raw)


On Monday, August 8, 2022 at 11:12:48 PM UTC-5, Randy Brukardt wrote:
> "Dmitry A. Kazakov" wrote in message 
> ...
> > P.S. Nobody writes Ada books these days because they do not sell.
> Do *any* programming books really sell? If so, why? :-) 

Having recently left a university, I can attest that schoolbooks are still a thing, and that includes textbooks on computer programming. I recently inherited from a member of this forum a nice textbook on Data Structures in Ada, but it was based on Ada 95, and I'm not sure it's in print anymore. In fact, and alas, only three of the Ada-based textbooks I find "easily" on Amazon date from the early- to mid-90s, and of the three recent ones I find, only the Barnes book is of good quality.

I'd be delighted if someone would prove me wrong.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-08-10  1:19                       ` Carbon John Perry
@ 2022-08-10  6:20                         ` Paul Rubin
  2022-08-10 17:58                           ` Carbon John Perry
  2022-08-10  8:24                         ` Carbon Luke A. Guest
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 40+ messages in thread
From: Paul Rubin @ 2022-08-10  6:20 UTC (permalink / raw)


> of the three recent ones I find, only the Barnes book is of good
> quality. I'd be delighted if someone would prove me wrong.

Analysable Real-Time Systems: Programmed in Ada by Prof. Alan Burns is
from 2016 and looks pretty good.  It is the book I mentioned that I got
on the recommendation of someone here.  I've flipped through it but
still haven't read it.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-08-10  1:19                       ` Carbon John Perry
  2022-08-10  6:20                         ` Carbon Paul Rubin
@ 2022-08-10  8:24                         ` Luke A. Guest
  2022-08-10 17:59                           ` Carbon John Perry
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 40+ messages in thread
From: Luke A. Guest @ 2022-08-10  8:24 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 10/08/2022 02:19, John Perry wrote:
> On Monday, August 8, 2022 at 11:12:48 PM UTC-5, Randy Brukardt wrote:
>> "Dmitry A. Kazakov" wrote in message
>> ...
>>> P.S. Nobody writes Ada books these days because they do not sell.
>> Do *any* programming books really sell? If so, why? :-)
> 
> Having recently left a university, I can attest that schoolbooks are still a thing, and that includes textbooks on computer programming. I recently inherited from a member of this forum a nice textbook on Data Structures in Ada, but it was based on Ada 95, and I'm not sure it's in print anymore. In fact, and alas, only three of the Ada-based textbooks I find "easily" on Amazon date from the early- to mid-90s, and of the three recent ones I find, only the Barnes book is of good quality.
> 
> I'd be delighted if someone would prove me wrong.

The only Ada95 DS book I know of is the one I have by Mark Weiss.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-08-10  6:20                         ` Carbon Paul Rubin
@ 2022-08-10 17:58                           ` John Perry
  2022-08-10 18:10                             ` Carbon Dennis Lee Bieber
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 40+ messages in thread
From: John Perry @ 2022-08-10 17:58 UTC (permalink / raw)


On Wednesday, August 10, 2022 at 1:20:45 AM UTC-5, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Analysable Real-Time Systems: Programmed in Ada by Prof. Alan Burns is 
> from 2016 and looks pretty good. It is the book I mentioned that I got 
> on the recommendation of someone here. I've flipped through it but 
> still haven't read it.

I hadn't seen that one; thanks!

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-08-10  8:24                         ` Carbon Luke A. Guest
@ 2022-08-10 17:59                           ` John Perry
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 40+ messages in thread
From: John Perry @ 2022-08-10 17:59 UTC (permalink / raw)


On Wednesday, August 10, 2022 at 3:26:44 AM UTC-5, Luke A. Guest wrote:
> The only Ada95 DS book I know of is the one I have by Mark Weiss.

The one is have is by Feldman.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

* Re: Carbon
  2022-08-10 17:58                           ` Carbon John Perry
@ 2022-08-10 18:10                             ` Dennis Lee Bieber
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 40+ messages in thread
From: Dennis Lee Bieber @ 2022-08-10 18:10 UTC (permalink / raw)


On Wed, 10 Aug 2022 10:58:26 -0700 (PDT), John Perry <devotus@yahoo.com>
declaimed the following:

>On Wednesday, August 10, 2022 at 1:20:45 AM UTC-5, Paul Rubin wrote:
>> Analysable Real-Time Systems: Programmed in Ada by Prof. Alan Burns is 
>> from 2016 and looks pretty good. It is the book I mentioned that I got 
>> on the recommendation of someone here. I've flipped through it but 
>> still haven't read it.
>
>I hadn't seen that one; thanks!

	Likely the follow-up to the older Real-Time Systems and Programming
Languages (which had Ada, real-time Java, and some C real-time
extension/variation)


-- 
	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
	wlfraed@ix.netcom.com    http://wlfraed.microdiversity.freeddns.org/

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 40+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2022-08-10 18:10 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 40+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2022-07-22 21:13 Carbon Gautier write-only address
2022-07-23  9:09 ` Carbon John McCabe
2022-07-23 13:14 ` Carbon Dmitry A. Kazakov
2022-07-23 13:49   ` Carbon Stéphane Rivière
2022-07-24  9:09 ` Carbon Jeffrey R.Carter
2022-07-24  9:22   ` Carbon Dmitry A. Kazakov
2022-07-24  9:38 ` Carbon Luke A. Guest
2022-07-26 17:31   ` Carbon John McCabe
2022-07-27  8:10     ` Carbon Luke A. Guest
2022-07-27 17:24       ` Carbon John McCabe
2022-07-27 20:00         ` Carbon Luke A. Guest
2022-07-28 23:48           ` Carbon Nasser M. Abbasi
2022-07-29  4:34             ` Carbon Devin Rozsas
2022-07-29 11:03             ` Carbon John McCabe
2022-07-29 19:05               ` Carbon Gautier write-only address
2022-07-30  9:16                 ` Carbon John McCabe
2022-07-30  8:11               ` Carbon G.B.
2022-07-29 18:59             ` Carbon Gautier write-only address
2022-07-30  4:26               ` Carbon Nasser M. Abbasi
2022-07-30  9:21               ` Carbon John McCabe
2022-07-30  1:40             ` Carbon Paul Rubin
2022-07-30  4:23               ` Carbon Nasser M. Abbasi
2022-08-06 14:18             ` Carbon dennis knorr
2022-08-06 17:48               ` Carbon A.J.
2022-08-07  9:08               ` Carbon G.B.
2022-08-08 21:38                 ` Carbon dennis knorr
2022-08-08 22:28                   ` Carbon Dmitry A. Kazakov
2022-08-09  4:12                     ` Carbon Randy Brukardt
2022-08-09  6:05                       ` Carbon Paul Rubin
2022-08-09  7:22                       ` Carbon John McCabe
2022-08-10  1:19                       ` Carbon John Perry
2022-08-10  6:20                         ` Carbon Paul Rubin
2022-08-10 17:58                           ` Carbon John Perry
2022-08-10 18:10                             ` Carbon Dennis Lee Bieber
2022-08-10  8:24                         ` Carbon Luke A. Guest
2022-08-10 17:59                           ` Carbon John Perry
2022-07-27 20:39         ` Carbon Simon Wright
2022-07-27 23:30           ` Carbon John McCabe
2022-07-27  8:45     ` Carbon Luke A. Guest
2022-07-27 13:16     ` Carbon Patrick Georgi

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