Re: Emb.Sys.Prog survey shows Ada being used negligibly

Re: Emb.Sys.Prog survey shows Ada being used negligibly

[dog.ee.lbl.gov!overload.lbl.gov!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!sol.ctr.colu]

In article <1ttj1iINNkae@umbc4.umbc.edu> berman@umbc.edu (Mike Berman) writes:

>This is a very real and foreboding point. I have even heard (but not
>confirmed) that this attitude exists in the service academies as well.
>Although Ada is being taught, a philosophical move towards C++ is being
>not only considered, but implemented. The reasoning is the same as Greg
>outlines above, looking past careers in the military to what is
>marketable on the outside. I suppose that the motivation from within is
>that to not do so would discourage prospective students from entering
>the academies vs. other institutions.

As a graduate of the Air Force Academy, I feel obliged to address
that issue. (This is a really whiney crabby old man voice):

When I was a cadet, we were taught ALGOL and we looooved it.

Where was I? Oh, discouraging prospective students from entering
our glorious service academies where they will be harassed from
dawn till well after dusk, generally treated as if they were
feeble minded and told what to wear, when to eat, and when they
can go out and play. Yeah, right. The SW language being taught
at any of the Academies has about as much impact on a prospective
student's decision to go there as their horoscope sign. And since
the applications outnumber vacancies by a couple orders of
magnitude, the Academies have little reason to worry about the
pools of prospective cadets drying up.
__________________________________________________________________
academe' - an ancient Greek school where philosphy and mathmatics
           were taught.
Academy  - an American school where football is taught
                               
(from Bierce's "Devil's Dictionary)
__________________________________________________________________

And a great big bunch of :) :) :) :) to all the rest of you
grads out there. (Even you squidly Annapolis types :) :)

-------------------------------------------------------------------
| Mark Shanks  USAFA '76               |           
| Principal Engineer                   |    All opinions mine,  
| 777 Displays                         |        of course.
| shanks@saifr00.cfsat.honeywell.com   |          
| "We have such sights to show you..." |            
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Emb.Sys.Prog survey shows Ada being used negligibly

[Michael Feldman]

In article <1993May25.211841.2711@saifr00.cfsat.honeywell.com> shanks@saifr00.c
fsat.honeywell.com (Mark Shanks) writes:
>
[other stuff deleted]

>... The SW language being taught
>at any of the Academies has about as much impact on a prospective
>student's decision to go there as their horoscope sign. And since
>the applications outnumber vacancies by a couple orders of
>magnitude, the Academies have little reason to worry about the
>pools of prospective cadets drying up.

Nice to hear from you on this.

Take it from an 18-year member of an EECS faculty: language decisions
have a lot to do with faculty preferences and politics. These decisions
are typically made by committees; faculties fight fiercely to protect
their curriculum-designing prerogatives, and I think most of you would
prefer to keep it that way. (We all like interference from above _if_
the interference happens to be on our side...)

What I hear from colleagues in the academy faculties is that the command
structure there is somewhat tighter than in an arbitrary college, but
somewhat looser than in the infantry. Somewhere in between, in that 
huge gray area between dictatorship and pure democracy is a decision-
making process that designs a curriculum. No doubt the commandant of an
academy could dictate choices at the detail level (like the choice of
a coding language), but why on earth would he waste ammunition on that?

My friends in the academies tell me that the ignorance of, and sometimes
hostility to, Ada among students and faculty is not terribly different
in the academies than elsewhere. The same reasons are given: lousy
and overpriced tools compared to other languages, clunkiness of the
type system, irrelevance of Ada to the rest of the world. In other
words, the same half-truths we always flame at each other about,
right here on the net.

So what else is new?

Mike Feldman
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael B. Feldman
co-chair, SIGAda Education Committee

Professor, Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
School of Engineering and Applied Science
The George Washington University
Washington, DC 20052 USA
(202) 994-5253 (voice)
(202) 994-5296 (fax)
mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Internet)

"The most important thing is to be sincere, 
and once you've learned how to fake that, you've got it made." 
-- old show-business adage
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Emb.Sys.Prog survey shows Ada being used negligibly

[dog.ee.lbl.gov!overload.lbl.gov!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!zaphod.m]

In article <EMERY.93May25192529@dr_no.mitre.org> emery@dr_no.mitre.org (David E
mery) writes:

>The Service Academies exist
>to train individuals for a military career, and *not* for subsequent
>civilian employment, particularly in the engineering field.
>The Academies exist to train people to
>be military officers.  
>
>I see no reason for the Academies to *not* teach Ada as their primary
>language.  Arguments about Ada's relevance to the outside world are
>not germaine, and if the Academy C.S. faculties are using these
>arguments, then they need to be "braced" and brought back to their
>primary mission.

Amen!!  And, since it is no longer possible that an officer can complete
a career in the military without having to make informed decisions about
automation, at least one semester of computer science and one semester
of software engineering should be in core curriculum.

Laurence L. Van Dolsen - Der fliegender Hollander
My opinions are my own, but you are welcome to them.
Paramax - (805) 987-9302 - vandolsen@cam.paramax.com

Re: Emb.Sys.Prog survey shows Ada being used negligibly

[dog.ee.lbl.gov!overload.lbl.gov!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!zaphod.mps.o]

In article <1993May26.151446.22220@seas.gwu.edu> mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Michael
 Feldman) writes:
>My friends in the academies tell me that the ignorance of, and sometimes
>hostility to, Ada among students and faculty is not terribly different
>in the academies than elsewhere. The same reasons are given: lousy
>and overpriced tools compared to other languages, clunkiness of the
>type system, irrelevance of Ada to the rest of the world. 

Oh, brother, to think that I learned ALGOL when I should have been
taught COBOL or FORTRAN IV! Well, it just goes to show ya!
(Once again, the SNL crabby old man voice):

When I was a cadet, no one gave a damn what software language was
being taught because we were all going to be shit-hot PILOTS and
fly those neat JETS when we graduated. If another cadet started
talking about the clunkiness of the TYPE system and the overpriced
TOOOOOOOLS involved, he (and I don't mean he/she) would have been
immediately and forever nicknamed "Geek-a-tron" or "Pencil-Neck"
(instead of something really cool like "Maverick") and made to 
carry everyone else's boxes of punch cards around (you remember
those, I'm sure). As that illustrious leader of men and our
beloved commandant, Hoyt S. Vandenberg, Jr., once told my class,
"At least you'll be able to tell your sons that you didn't spend
four years contemplating your navel under the yum-yum tree at
Cream Puff U."

Back to your regular poster:

The academies have the duty to teach Ada. Period. And from what I've
seen, at least Capt. Cook at the AFA is doing so, and offering a free
two week seminar on Ada for the last few summers, so I guess THEY
have the faculty and tools to continue teaching it. If the academies
don't want to support it because of its irrelevance to the rest
of the world, the next thing you know, cadets will stop: spending hours
shining their shoes, getting a haircut every week, dressing up
in those famous Cecil B. DeMille (quite literally) outfits, and all
the other things cadets do that are irrelevant to the rest of the
world. What would happen then? ;>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
| Mark "Still having AFA flashbacks" Shanks |                 
| Principal Engineer                        |    All opinions mine,  
| 777 Displays                              |        of course.
| shanks@saifr00.cfsat.honeywell.com        |          
| "We have such sights to show you..."      |            
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Emb.Sys.Prog survey shows Ada being used negligibly

[dog.ee.lbl.gov!overload.lbl.gov!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!zaphod.mps.o]

In article <1993May26.184044.26640@source.asset.com> vand@source.asset.com (Lau
rence VanDolsen) writes:

>Amen!!  And, since it is no longer possible that an officer can complete
>a career in the military without having to make informed decisions about
>automation, at least one semester of computer science and one semester
>of software engineering should be in core curriculum.

Who says officers have to make *informed* decisions on anything??  ;>

Comp sci has been in the core curriculum for at least the last twenty
years. I don't think software engineering, as such, is there, at
least as "core" material.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
| Mark Shanks                          |           
| Principal Engineer                   |    All opinions mine,  
| 777 Displays                         |        of course.
| shanks@saifr00.cfsat.honeywell.com   |          
| "We have such sights to show you..." |            
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Emb.Sys.Prog survey shows Ada being used negligibly

[Gregory Aharonian]

>My friends in the academies tell me that the ignorance of, and sometimes
>hostility to, Ada among students and faculty is not terribly different
>in the academies than elsewhere. The same reasons are given: lousy
>and overpriced tools compared to other languages, clunkiness of the
>type system, irrelevance of Ada to the rest of the world. 

   I'd like to point out that most realistic sub-study of the original
Mosemann studies, in terms of actually looking at real world demographics,
was that done by Naval Postgraduate School team, whose statements were
at odds with those of the other sub-studies done by contractors.

Greg
-- 
**************************************************************************
 Greg Aharonian
 Source Translation & Optimization
 P.O. Box 404, Belmont, MA 02178