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* Re: Ada9X Features
@ 1994-09-12 15:12 Michael Hagerty
  1994-09-13 16:08 ` Michael Feldman
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Michael Hagerty @ 1994-09-12 15:12 UTC (permalink / raw)


On Sun, 11 Sep 1994, Michael Feldman <mfeldman@SEAS.GWU.EDU> wrote:

MF> This discussion of "creeping featurism" in Ada 9X points up just
  > how difficult a consensus process is. Everyone says "this language
  > is getting too big; we don't need all this junk; leave _my_
  > favorite stuff in, please."

Much, much, much horse trading goes on in building a consensus on a
standards committee.  I recall one instance on the Pascal committee
where, in order to get the set extensions I so dearly wanted, I went
along with adding complex numbers...  Even then, set complement was
whacked way down when the rest of the committee guessed what was
required in generating the complement of the null set!  Shucks...

Almost every language (he says qualifiedly) has parts that are unused
in common applications.  The goal is to build something like the
mid-scale swiss army knife: all of the things you need daily, some of
what you may need occasionally, but still small enough to carry in
your pocket, so that you will have it when you need it <everyday>.

I think of PL/I as the mega-swiss army knife; you know, the one in
the case that is so big that you could not imagine anyone schlepping
that puppy around...  Ada, in its current implementations, is more
like a ShopMate power tool.

Even Lincoln's comment about "pleasing all of the people" in mind,
there is the issue of timeliness and "hitting the market window".  I
recognize that standard Pascal's position in the market was harmed
by not having an extended language standard at the time the C weenies
were running amok.  Promises of a C standard right around the corner
were believed only by those who had never worked on a standard, but
it did have the effect of spreading FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt).

Regards, Mikey <michael.hagerty@nitelog.com>



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada9X Features
@ 1994-09-15 17:56 Michael Hagerty
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Michael Hagerty @ 1994-09-15 17:56 UTC (permalink / raw)


On 13 Sep 1994, Michael Feldman <mfeldman@SEAS.GWU.EDU> responded to my
earler post:

MF> Good anecdote. I was not on the Pascal committee but followed some
  > of the discussions. I recall that the standard-making process stalled
  > for some time on the issue of "conformant array parameters", a seemingly
  > obvious idea in which array parameters to subprograms conform to the
  > bounds of the actual parameter (sort of a half-way "unconstrained array
  > type paramter" to use Ada's terms). This seemed natural to many,
  > especially since Fortran had it for years.

The discussion of conformant arrays is long and tedious with the
sentinel issue being that the originator of the proposed standard tacked
on a feature which had never been tested, saying "take it or leave it".
Note that this was not the designer of the language, but someone who was
believed to be advancing a personal agenda.  The animosity and distrust
engendered in the American committee as a result of this high-handed
tactic doomed conformant arrays to second-class status independent of
the feature's perceived usefulness or uselessness.

Without arguing the reasonableness of such (childish) behavior, I can
say from first hand participation, that there were many of us who were
badly chafed by the whole experience.  I do not believe that this has
happened on Ada9X.

MF> After all that, there are _two_ Pascal standards, one adopted by ISO
  > which includes conformant array parameters, and one adopted by ANSI,
  > which is the ISO one _minus_ conformant array parameters. The story
  > going around was that the US compiler vendors kept it out of the US
  > standard.

Not true anymore.  There is one and only one Extended Pascal Standard.
It does, however, forever relegate conformant arrays to second-class
status, indicating that they will be phased out in a future standard.

MF> And Pascal is a pretty simple language.:-)

Looking more and more like Ada every day...

Regards, Mikey
---
Michael Patrick Hagerty, Computer Sciences Corp.    | mhagerty@fnoc.navy.mil
Fleet Numerical Meteorology and Oceanography Center | Phone:  (408) 656-4456
7 Grace Hopper Ave, Stop 1, Monterey, CA 93943-5501 | FAX:    (408) 656-4313

         "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend;
          inside a dog, it's too dark to read..."  Groucho Marx



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~1994-09-21  6:03 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 9+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
1994-09-12 15:12 Ada9X Features Michael Hagerty
1994-09-13 16:08 ` Michael Feldman
1994-09-13 20:04   ` Robert Dewar
1994-09-14 13:06     ` Fortran 90 arrays (was: Re: Ada9X Features) Norman H. Cohen
1994-09-16  1:39     ` Ada9X Features Michael Feldman
1994-09-14  9:15   ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1994-09-14 14:26     ` Michael Feldman
1994-09-21  6:03       ` ISO Pascal Extended Richard A. O'Keefe
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
1994-09-15 17:56 Ada9X Features Michael Hagerty

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