Re: decline of Ada?

Re: decline of Ada?

[Jon S Anthony]

In article <DavidC.159.32806FF8@ise.canberra.edu.au> DavidC@ise.canberra.edu.au (David Clark) writes:

> Below is a report on the future of Ada by the "Committee on the Past
> and Present Contexts for the Use o fAda in the Department of
> Defense".  It's first recommendation is to "Continue to require Ada
> for its warfighting software and drop the Ada requirement for its
> other software".  It is not hard to surmise that this is a serious
> blow to Ada, and that the use of Ada will decline.

Could be, but really, Ada has to make it in the commercial market
independent of so called "mandates" (which were never enforced
anyway).  So, this could actually be a _good_ thing for Ada - the less
association with the government the better :-)


> Is this good or bad news for Eiffel? I suspect that it is bad
> news. It says that even the support of the DoD is not enough to
> ensure the wide acceptance of a language unless it is promoted by
> one of the big players. I hope, very much, that Eiffel will be an
> exception.  David

Part of the problem is that the DoD never really gave Ada much support
yet tainted it's image by associating it with "the government".


/Jon
-- 
Jon Anthony
Organon Motives, Inc.
Belmont, MA 02178
617.484.3383
jsa@organon.com

Re: decline of Ada?

[Sam Harbaugh: Palm Bay, Florida]

>Date:    Thu, 7 Nov 1996 20:17:32 GMT
>From:    Jon S Anthony <jsa@ALEXANDRIA.AMERICAN.EDU>
>Subject: Re: decline of Ada?

>Could be, but really, Ada has to make it in the commercial market
>independent of so called "mandates" (which were never enforced
>anyway).  So, this could actually be a _good_ thing for Ada - the less
>association with the government the better :-)

I am told that Oracle says that in two years Java will be the standard data
base  language (rather than SQL).  Of course Microsoft may say otherwise. I
am also told that Oracle had 15,000 attendees at Mosconi Center in San
Francisco at last week's Oracle World (or whatever they called it). Compare
this with Tri-Ada attendance.

There are technical and cultural reasons* why Java is the current emerging
commercial language. These same reasons preclude Ada from that area. I guess
that in 20 years there will be technical and cultural reasons why Java will
have plateaued (is there such a word?) and another language is taking its place.

>Part of the problem is that the DoD never really gave Ada much support
>yet tainted it's image by associating it with "the government".

In my opinion it is not a "problem", just a "situation".

In my opinion the DoD gave Ada a GREAT DEAL of support.

How could they not associate it with the Government, they are a part of the
Government?  The DoD had Ada built to specification to solve their problem,
not the problems of the commercial sector.

*ask me and i'll say what i think the reasons are.

my 2 cents worth

sam harbaugh palm bay, florida

Re: decline of Ada?

[Jon S Anthony]

In article <199611121040.FAA16264@bb.iu.net> "Sam Harbaugh: Palm Bay, Florida" <harbaugh@IU.NET> writes:

> >Could be, but really, Ada has to make it in the commercial market
> >independent of so called "mandates" (which were never enforced
> >anyway).  So, this could actually be a _good_ thing for Ada - the less
> >association with the government the better :-)
> 
> I am told that Oracle says that in two years Java will be the standard data
> base  language (rather than SQL).  Of course Microsoft may say otherwise. I
> am also told that Oracle had 15,000 attendees at Mosconi Center in San
> Francisco at last week's Oracle World (or whatever they called it). Compare
> this with Tri-Ada attendance.

What on Earth has this got to do with the above?


> There are technical and cultural reasons* why Java is the current
> emerging commercial language. These same reasons preclude Ada from
> that area. I guess that in 20 years there will be technical and
> cultural reasons why Java will have plateaued (is there such a
> word?) and another language is taking its place.

I suppose.  Of course, 2 years ago, people were saying the exact same
thing about C++.  Now, only a couple years later, we have it that Java
is somehow the "current emerging commercial language" and sacred cow
(I mean, really - where did you get that 20 year thing???  Hell, in
two years there could be Simba which will clearly be the "current
emerging commercial language")


> >Part of the problem is that the DoD never really gave Ada much support
> >yet tainted it's image by associating it with "the government".
> 
> In my opinion it is not a "problem", just a "situation".

OK.


> In my opinion the DoD gave Ada a GREAT DEAL of support.

I meant after the fact.  It's sort of like the "their support begins at
xxx and ends at yyy"...


> of the Government?  The DoD had Ada built to specification to solve
> their problem, not the problems of the commercial sector.

Same with the Internet, KC135, 747, COBOL, etc., etc., etc.  Clearly,
this line of thought is severely flawed.


/Jon
-- 
Jon Anthony
Organon Motives, Inc.
Belmont, MA 02178
617.484.3383
jsa@organon.com

Re: decline of Ada?

[JBisaillon]

I am not sure what the exact thread is here, I have a sense of what
it might be.  Let me shed some light on a few realities.

1) If you are an Ada programmer, you had better pray that you don't
get downsized.  All that training, years of experience, are virtually
worthless unless you can find another DoD Contractor
doing Ada.

2) DoD Contractors will not build in Ada because you can't find
trained coders to work for 24K to 32K per year.  But you can find "C"
coders.  Therefore, if you want the contract, you cut the cost and
program it in "C".  It really has very little to do with the language,
its advantages, or disadvantages.  It has to do with dollars.

Just a few words of wisdom for Ada coders.  There is no place to go.
If you do not know another language, kiss you butt good bye.

I've been building systems, primarily Naval systems for about 15 years.
You can not code a system in Ada and be cost competitive.  I can get
two or three good "C" coders, X-Windows coders at the price of one Ada
programmer.

The government will tell you to code in Ada, and every Contractor who
is willing to work the job, will submit a waiver to do the system in
"C".  As a result, by default it is not done in Ada.

I've been specifically told, "If you want a job, remove the "Ada" word
from your resume".  I've been told by others that only "DoD
people do Ada, and DoD people are not productive".


Been there, done that!
JimB

Re: decline of Ada?

[Steve Jones - JON]

JBisaillon <jbisaill@brainiac.com> writes:

> 
[..snip..]
> 
> I've been building systems, primarily Naval systems for about 15 years.
> You can not code a system in Ada and be cost competitive.  I can get
> two or three good "C" coders, X-Windows coders at the price of one Ada
> programmer.

Ummm just one small point here. If you can find an X windows engineer
who is paid less than a standard Ada programmer then he is well
underpaid.

There are more 'C' programmers than Ada programmers but on the
other hand there are a damned sight less decent X people out
there than Ada people.

Steve Jones

Eurocontrol Experimental Centre

PS The ATC market place has alot of huge contracts out at the moment and
   they are all majority Ada projects because C won't cut the mustard.

Re: decline of Ada?

[Peter Hermann]

JBisaillon (jbisaill@brainiac.com) wrote:
: I've been building systems, primarily Naval systems for about 15 years.
: You can not code a system in Ada and be cost competitive.

The agent told his customer that this motor saw will cut 100 times more
trees a day. After a week the customer complained that he would cut
even less trees than before by hand. The agent started the motor to demo.
"Oohh, what a noise is this?" asked the customer.

: I can get
: two or three good "C" coders, X-Windows coders at the price of one Ada
: programmer.

realistic estimation   ;-)

: Been there, done that!

no comment

--
Peter Hermann  Tel:+49-711-685-3611 Fax:3758 ph@csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de
Pfaffenwaldring 27, 70569 Stuttgart Uni Computeranwendungen
Team Ada: "C'mon people let the world begin" (Paul McCartney)

Re: decline of Ada?

[Ian Ward]

In article fsf@berlioz.eurocontrol.fr, Steve Jones - JON <jon@berlioz.eurocontrol.fr> () writes:
:>JBisaillon <jbisaill@brainiac.com> writes:
:>
:>> 
:>[..snip..]
:>> 
:>> I've been building systems, primarily Naval systems for about 15 years.
:>> You can not code a system in Ada and be cost competitive.  I can get
:>> two or three good "C" coders, X-Windows coders at the price of one Ada
:>> programmer.
:>
>Ummm just one small point here. If you can find an X windows engineer
>who is paid less than a standard Ada programmer then he is well
>underpaid.
>
>There are more 'C' programmers than Ada programmers but on the
>other hand there are a damned sight less decent X people out
>there than Ada people.
>
>Steve Jones
>
>Eurocontrol Experimental Centre
>
>PS The ATC market place has alot of huge contracts out at the moment and
>   they are all majority Ada projects because C won't cut the mustard.


Hardly any Ada people know X either, it used to be pointless, the work
involved getting Ada 83 to interface used to be monstrous, thank God 
for Ada95.  I went on an X-course myself last year or the year before
last, (for interests sake) and I was the only Ada man there. I don't
think the instructor had even heard of the language, which implies
that he had not had too much experience with our types. 

Anyway, this is a recommendation for the course, which is held in the 
business park north of Cambridge. The instructor, (who was a 'C'ite) was
clear, concise, and well informed. If anyone wants to go there, E-mail me
and I'll look up the telephone number.

Anyway, this problem should now change with Ada95.

Best regards,
Ian.

---
Ian Ward's opinions only : wardi@rsd.bel.alcatel.be

Re: decline of Ada?

[Robert Dewar]

JBisaillon complains about not being able to find jobs programming Ada,
and suggests that Ada programmers are no more productive than C programmers
and cost more.

Not even the most ardent fan of Ada would suggest that knowledge of Ada
per se makes programmers either employable or productive. As is the case
in most fields today, competence counts highly. There is no question that
there are jobs for competent Ada programmers.

The interesting question is whether there are jobs for less competent
C, Java etc programmers. It might temporarily be the case that this is
so, but all our experience says that this will only be temporary. We
see this happening all the time in the computer field. There is a 
shortage of people, and for a while, anyone who can spell the name
of the currrent language (COBOL one time, now Java) can get a job,
but that VERY quickly passes.

You should see the current generation of students, they are very sharp,
and they are there in numbers, and they know an amazing amount very early.
There will be little room for anyone but highly competent programmers
in any area.

As for being advised to take Ada off your resume, that can mean any number
of things

1. the advice is bad, and you are not beeing steered in the right direction
2. your other constraints (location etc) make it hard to find Ada jobs
3. your best talents are in other areas, so it is best to emaphasize them

Your factual information is rather dubious. Your model of non-productive
DoD contractors using $25K C coders and asking for waivers to use C
(on this basis???) is if not non-existent, certainly nothing like the 
normal situation. If the place you worked was like this, then it sounds
like some (drastic) downsizing was quite appropriate!

Re: decline of Ada?

[Adam Beneschan]

JBisaillon <jbisaill@brainiac.com> writes:
 
 >I am not sure what the exact thread is here, I have a sense of what
 >it might be.  Let me shed some light on a few realities.
 
Uh oh, the "R" word.  Usually a sign that what follows is
opinion-heavy and fact-light.
 
 >1) If you are an Ada programmer, you had better pray that you don't
 >get downsized.  All that training, years of experience, are virtually
 >worthless unless you can find another DoD Contractor
 >doing Ada.
 
I kind of doubt that.  I've worked in Ada for 8+ years, and in that
time I've learned a ton of stuff that has nothing specifically to do
with Ada (software engineering techniques being just one of the major
things I've gained experience in).  Surely I would be a much better C
programmer now than I would be in my previous C programming job eight
years ago, or a better COBOL programmer than in my previous COBOL
programming job, etc.  So the statement that my experience is
virtually worthless is pretty silly.
 
 >2) DoD Contractors will not build in Ada because you can't find
 >trained coders to work for 24K to 32K per year.  But you can find "C"
 >coders.  Therefore, if you want the contract, you cut the cost and
 >program it in "C".  It really has very little to do with the language,
 >its advantages, or disadvantages.  It has to do with dollars.

Management would have to be pretty short-sighted to think like that.
Anyone who thinks that you can cut your project cost in half by hiring
programmers at $24K instead of $48K needs to write, "You get what you
pay for", 100 times on the blackboard.  (Of course, not all $48K
programmers are worth twice as much as all $24K programmers.)  I
suppose that hiring cheaper "trained coders" (why does this remind me
of "trained chimps"?) might allow a contractor to submit a lower bid,
and put off until later the concerns about the cost overruns that will
occur when the project doesn't work and your programmers, who only
have enough experience to be making $24K and are working in a language
that makes it more difficult to track down bugs, take much longer than
expected to get the bugs out.

Now that I've gotten all this off my chest, there's no _a priori_ way
to know whether it's actually cheaper to write a system in Ada (and to
maintain it, and to port it to other systems where necessary, all of
which need to be considered as part of the cost).  I seem to recall
that there have been studies showing that some Ada systems are less
expensive to produce than other languages despite the increased time
for initial coding.  But I don't remember any details, and my memory
may be faulty.

                                -- Adam

Re: decline of Ada?

[Geert Bosch]

JBisaillon (jbisaill@brainiac.com) wrote:
   1) If you are an Ada programmer, you had better pray that you don't
   get downsized.  All that training, years of experience, are virtually
   worthless unless you can find another DoD Contractor
   doing Ada.

In Europe there are many jobs involving Ada (as a tool, not a goal!).
In fact there are many more job openings than qualified people to fill
them.  And there is no "DoD" with a "mandate" in Europe. Some Americans
have such a limited view that they fail to see the language is also
used on a large scale without companies being forced to.

  "Just a few words of wisdom for Ada coders.  There is no place to go.
   If you do not know another language, kiss you butt good bye."

You may have a point. You hopefully can't find a job as "Ada coder".
Coding is a simple job, especially when using Ada. Designing and
specifying the system is the hard part, but you don't need coders for
that.

For a job doing coding and debugging, you'd better use C. For a system
built on schedule and with low maintenance cost you might ditch the C
coder and get a qualified engineer. Of course I understand that this
scenario frightens some people, especially when software quality is
becoming more important and the replacement of coders by designers is
getting more common.

Regards,
  Geert
-- 
E-Mail: geert@sun3.iaf.nl    

Re: decline of Ada?

[Michael Feldman]

In article <572o5g$et6@fozzie.sun3.iaf.nl>,
Geert Bosch <geert@fozzie.sun3.iaf.nl> wrote:

[snip]  

>In Europe there are many jobs involving Ada (as a tool, not a goal!).
>In fact there are many more job openings than qualified people to fill
>them.  And there is no "DoD" with a "mandate" in Europe. Some Americans
>have such a limited view that they fail to see the language is also
>used on a large scale without companies being forced to.

This might be a good time to post this list again. Can anyone help
me make it, and keep it, as up to date and accurate as possible?
(Private e-mail is fine; I will not quote anyone.)

Thanks and cheers -

Mike Feldman
--- cut here ---
Interesting Projects (mostly non-defense)
in which Ada is used to at least a significant degree.

I know the list is incomplete. I am very interested in getting
additions, corrections, and additional domains; I want the data
to be current and verifiable.

Michael B. Feldman
chair, SIGAda Education Working Group
Professor, Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
The George Washington University
Washington, DC 20052 USA
202-994-5919 (voice)
202-994-0227 (fax)
mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Internet)

Air Traffic Control Systems, by country

Australia
Belgium
Brazil
Canada
China
Czech Republic
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Hong Kong
Hungary
India
Ireland
Kenya
Netherlands
New Zealand
Pakistan
Scotland
Singapore
South Africa
Spain
Sweden
United Kingdom
United States
Vietnam


Banking and Financial Networks

Reuters news service
Swiss Postbank Electronic Funds Transfer system


Commercial Aircraft

Airbus 330
Airbus 340
Beechjet 400A (US business jet)
Beech Starship I (US business turboprop)
Beriev BE-200 (Russian forest fire patrol)
Boeing 737-200, -400, -500, -600, -700, -800
Boeing 747-400
Boeing 757
Boeing 767
Boeing 777
Canadair Regional Jet
Embraer CBA-123 and CBA-145 (Brazilian-made regional airliners)
Fokker F-100 (Dutch DC-9-size airliner - American Airlines flies these)
Ilyushin 96M (Russian jetliner)
Saab 2000
Tupolev TU-204 (Russian jetliner)


Communication and Navigational Satellites and receivers

INMARSAT - voice and data communications to ships and mobile communications
Intelsat VII
NSTAR (Nippon Telephone and Telegraph)
PanAmSat (South American Intelsat-like consortium)
United States Coast Guard Differential Global Positioning System (GPS)
Rockwell Collins NavCore V GPS receiver
ESA/Alcatel-SEL GPS receiver
TDRSS Ground Terminals - NASA


Scientific Satellites

Cassini command subsystem
ENVISAT-1 - European Space Agency (ESA), Earth observation satellite
XMM - ESA
EOS - NASA's Earth Observing System
Goes
RadarSat (Canada)
UK Space Technology Research Vehicle, auxillary payload on Ariane4


Railway Transportation

Cairo Metro
Calcutta Metro
Caracas Metro
Channel Tunnel
Conrail (major U.S. railway company)
French High-Speed Rail (TGV)
French National Railways
Hong Kong Suburban Rail
London Underground
Paris Metro
Paris Suburban Rail


Television Industry

Canal+ (French pay-per-view TV, remote cable box control software)


Medical Industry

JEOL Nuclear Magnetic Resonance

Re: decline of Ada?

[Ken Garlington]

JBisaillon wrote:
> 
> I am not sure what the exact thread is here, I have a sense of what
> it might be.  Let me shed some light on a few realities.
> 
> 1) If you are an Ada programmer, you had better pray that you don't
> get downsized.  All that training, years of experience, are virtually
> worthless unless you can find another DoD Contractor
> doing Ada.

False. I know several Ada programmers who were downsized with the cancellation
of the A-12 program. They were in high demand.

> 2) DoD Contractors will not build in Ada because you can't find
> trained coders to work for 24K to 32K per year.  But you can find "C"
> coders.  Therefore, if you want the contract, you cut the cost and
> program it in "C".  It really has very little to do with the language,
> its advantages, or disadvantages.  It has to do with dollars.

False. We have several new program starts hiring Ada programmers. For
that matter, we used Ada on projects before the so-called "Ada
Mandate" was ever created. In one competition, we used Ada extensively;
our competitor did not. We won. Did Ada help? I don't know. However,
clearly you can compete with Ada.

> Just a few words of wisdom for Ada coders.  There is no place to go.
> If you do not know another language, kiss you butt good bye.

See above.

> I've been building systems, primarily Naval systems for about 15 years.
> You can not code a system in Ada and be cost competitive.  I can get
> two or three good "C" coders, X-Windows coders at the price of one Ada
> programmer.

What SEI level are you?

> The government will tell you to code in Ada, and every Contractor who
> is willing to work the job, will submit a waiver to do the system in
> "C".  As a result, by default it is not done in Ada.

False. (In fact, there's about 50 million lines of Ada that prove you
wrong.)

> I've been specifically told, "If you want a job, remove the "Ada" word
> from your resume".  I've been told by others that only "DoD
> people do Ada, and DoD people are not productive".

You've been specifically lied to. :)

On a related subject, our web site now has job listings. We don't always
use Ada in the job pre-requisites, but many of the positions are for Ada
programmers. (If you're a good programmer, but don't know Ada, don't worry.
We can train you.)

-- 
LMTAS - "Our Brand Means Quality"
For more info, see http://www.lmtas.com or http://www.lmco.com

Re: decline of Ada? - piffle

[Dave Wood]

JBisaillon wrote:
> 
> I am not sure what the exact thread is here, I have a sense of what
> it might be.  Let me shed some light on a few realities.
> 
> 1) If you are an Ada programmer, you had better pray that you don't
> get downsized.  All that training, years of experience, are virtually
> worthless unless you can find another DoD Contractor
> doing Ada.

Nonsense.  Anyone who develops code in Ada83/95 and cannot 
rapidly port that knowledge to C/C++ (or vice versa)
has no business calling themselves a software engineer
and are not worthy of re-employment.  

> 2) DoD Contractors will not build in Ada because you can't find
> trained coders to work for 24K to 32K per year.  

If you are willing to work for $24K, I don't want you on
my team.  Hell, I made more than that on my first job 16
years ago (FORTRAN, by the way).

> But you can find "C"
> coders.  Therefore, if you want the contract, you cut the cost and
> program it in "C".  It really has very little to do with the language,
> its advantages, or disadvantages.  It has to do with dollars.

So, first you say that C is more in demand, and then that there
are a glut of C programmers.  Which is it?


> Just a few words of wisdom for Ada coders.  There is no place to go.
> If you do not know another language, kiss you butt good bye.

If you do not *know* another language your college professors 
ought to be fired.  If you are *unable* to learn another 
language, you ought to be fired.  Nothing you have said
supports the assertion that "there is no place to go", nor is
there evidence that these words are indicative of "wisdom".

> I've been building systems, primarily Naval systems for about 15 years.
> You can not code a system in Ada and be cost competitive.  I can get
> two or three good "C" coders, X-Windows coders at the price of one Ada
> programmer.

Have you tried lately to get top-notch C/Windows programmers?

$$$$$$$$$ very expensive and hard to recruit $$$$$$$$$$$$$

Does this mean that Windows and/ or C is dead?  Or is your
threshhold of quality so much lower that you'll take the
cheapest hack who comes along?


> The government will tell you to code in Ada, and every Contractor who
> is willing to work the job, will submit a waiver to do the system in
> "C".  As a result, by default it is not done in Ada.

Certainly this is not a rare event, but it is by no means 
universal either.  Believe it or not, some organizations
use Ada because they like it, not because they have to.

> I've been specifically told, "If you want a job, remove the "Ada" word
> from your resume".  I've been told by others that only "DoD
> people do Ada, and DoD people are not productive".

Maybe a lesson in resume writing would be of value.  I've
never removed Ada from my resume (any more than I would
remove any other relevant bit of information), and I've
never had trouble getting job offers, for Ada jobs, C jobs,
or jobs having nothing to do with a particular language.

Now, I wouldn't recommend that your Objective line should say
"I want to live and breath Ada every day, and no other language
or thing can fulfill my life."  More valuable would be to say
that you are looking for a challenging position in <whatever>,
and by the way you are neither concerned about, nor in fear
of, the particular implementation language.

-- Dave Wood
-- Product Manager, ObjectAda for Windows
-- Aonix - "Ada with an Attitude"
-- http://www.aonix.com

Re: decline of Ada?

[David Kristola]

In article 62B0@lmtas.lmco.com, Ken Garlington <garlingtonke@lmtas.lmco.com> () writes:
>JBisaillon wrote:
>> 
>> I am not sure what the exact thread is here, I have a sense of what
>> it might be.  Let me shed some light on a few realities.
>> 
>> 1) If you are an Ada programmer, you had better pray that you don't
>> get downsized.  All that training, years of experience, are virtually
>> worthless unless you can find another DoD Contractor
>> doing Ada.
>
>False. I know several Ada programmers who were downsized with the cancellation
>of the A-12 program. They were in high demand.

Count me as one of the A-12 downsized.  I had another job within a
month.  That one lasted for about two years until that project was
cancelled.  I was working a week later.  I will admit that all my
jobs have been for DoD contractors (actually, they are all Lockheed
Martin now).

>
>> 2) DoD Contractors will not build in Ada because you can't find
>> trained coders to work for 24K to 32K per year.  But you can find "C"
>> coders.  Therefore, if you want the contract, you cut the cost and
>> program it in "C".  It really has very little to do with the language,
>> its advantages, or disadvantages.  It has to do with dollars.

If anyone starts building weapons systems in C using the cheapest
programmers available, we all have a lot to worry about.

[snip]

>On a related subject, our web site now has job listings. We don't always
>use Ada in the job pre-requisites, but many of the positions are for Ada
>programmers. (If you're a good programmer, but don't know Ada, don't worry.
>We can train you.)

LMTAS (formerly General Dynamics, Fort Worth Division) had a good
training program years ago, and it seems that they have maintained
it.

>
>-- 
>LMTAS - "Our Brand Means Quality"
>For more info, see http://www.lmtas.com or http://www.lmco.com

See also: http://www.lmsc.lockheed.com

---
david kristola
(not speaking for Lockheed Martin or SAMCO)
Home: David95036@aol.com       (subject to change if spammed!)
Work: <if email, look in header; if post, use my home address>
Spam: eat-spam-and-die@dev.null     (where all spam should go)

Re: decline of Ada?

[Darel Cullen]

In article <5762ls$4qn@butch.lmsc.lockheed.com>, David Kristola
<davidk@OS7.ifs> spoke thus :-
>In article 62B0@lmtas.lmco.com, Ken Garlington <garlingtonke@lmtas.lmco.com> () 
>writes:
>
>>

>>> 2) DoD Contractors will not build in Ada because you can't find
>>> trained coders to work for 24K to 32K per year.  

You can in England :) (dollars or pounds) 

>>> But you can find "C"
>>> coders.  Therefore, if you want the contract, you cut the cost and
>>> program it in "C".  It really has very little to do with the language,
>>> its advantages, or disadvantages.  It has to do with dollars.

appologies for replying to a reply to a reply to a reply, but i dont
store much mail at home..

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Darel J. Cullen                    Software Engineer
Email: Darel@djcull.demon.co.uk                      
Url: http://www.djcull.demon.co.uk/                 
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