Re: Is General Kind the harbinger of doom for the Mandate?

Re: Is General Kind the harbinger of doom for the Mandate?

[jnestoriak]

>	 "We're hearing calls to abandon Ada from DoD officials",
>	 he said.  "I'm asking contractors to assess it, and
>	 they say it does what's needed, but they can't get
>	 enough programmers".

>Not enough Ada programmers being
>supplied by the free markets.

I've heard this complaint of "not enough Ada programmers" over and
over here.  Is this really the case?  It seems to me that a shortage
of programmers for a particular language is always contrived.  Anyone
who graduates from a decent University with a degree in Computer
Science who can't learn a new programming language in less than a
month must have slept through too many classes.  Is it really
unreasonable to expect employers to give a few weeks of education
to their new hires (whether experience or from school)?  I'd like to
think I'm a genius because I was able to quickly learn "that
terribly complex and hard to understand" language Ada, but I get the
feeling that it's not too rare an ability.

********************************************************************
* These opinions are mine only.                     John Nestoriak *
********************************************************************

Re: Is General Kind the harbinger of doom

[Mark A. Breland]

In article 56@almaden.ibm.com, jnestoriak@vnet.IBM.COM () writes:
>
>I've heard this complaint of "not enough Ada programmers" over and
>over here.  Is this really the case?  It seems to me that a shortage
>of programmers for a particular language is always contrived.  Anyone
>who graduates from a decent University with a degree in Computer
>Science who can't learn a new programming language in less than a
>month must have slept through too many classes.  Is it really
 ^^^^^
I'd probably agree with you on this point *syntactically*; however,
*semantically* it's an entirely different story.  The nuances and
subtlies of Ada require a broader experience base with the language
and the platform on which it's implemented to develop a full understanding
of its behavior.

>unreasonable to expect employers to give a few weeks of education
>to their new hires (whether experience or from school)?  I'd like to
>think I'm a genius because I was able to quickly learn "that
>terribly complex and hard to understand" language Ada, but I get the
>feeling that it's not too rare an ability.

What you see here is an instance of MIL-STD-MGR at work.  It's not
surprising to see Ada contractors manage in the same manner as their largest
customer (i.e., DoD)...reactively.  They've got 40 programming positions to
fill so what do they do?  Submit a requisition for Body, warm-Ada-proficient,
CFE-1815A-2167A-SM/F quantity 40.  There's a problem...do something to make
it go away.  It's difficult for them to shake the mindset that people are
readily interchangeable, yet must have all perquisite specializations.

However, this does not have to be the case...more gems of proactive managers
are surfacing, but most frequently in the commercial environment.
Personally, when I hire, and I have to choose between a perfect Ada
Adonis/Diana stud/babe or a competent software engineer lacking Ada exposure
but having expertise in the applied technology,  I'll go for the applied
technology expert every time.  The benefit of their application expertise
outweighs the cost of any necessary Ada training.  One or two Ada gurus
in-house to tackle esoteric Ada-issues, coupled with a stable of
application-expert software programmers, will increase your cost
effectiveness and reduce program completion risk.  Unless you want to shop
around for the first half of your scheduled program time looking for a full
staff of Ada competents...  ;)

---
Mark A. Breland - Microelectronics and Computer Technology Corporation (MCC)
Ada Fault Tolerance                               | voice:    (512) 338-3509
3500 West Balcones Center Drive                   | FAX:      (512) 338-3900
Austin, Texas 78759-6509   USA                    | internet: breland@mcc.com

Re: Is General Kind the harbinger of doom for the Mandate?

[Joshua Levy]

In article <19930331.054448.56@almaden.ibm.com> jnestoriak@vnet.IBM.COM writes:
>>	 "We're hearing calls to abandon Ada from DoD officials",
>>	 he said.  "I'm asking contractors to assess it, and
>>	 they say it does what's needed, but they can't get
>>	 enough programmers".
>
>>Not enough Ada programmers being supplied by the free markets.
>
>I've heard this complaint of "not enough Ada programmers" over and
>over here.  Is this really the case?  It seems to me that a shortage
>of programmers for a particular language is always contrived.  Anyone
>who graduates from a decent University with a degree in Computer
>Science who can't learn a new programming language in less than a
>month must have slept through too many classes.  Is it really
>unreasonable to expect employers to give a few weeks of education
>to their new hires (whether experience or from school)?  

Another way of put it is this:  There is a shortage of programmers who
want to learn (or work in) Ada.  

Obviously most programmers could learn Ada if they wanted to.  If not
in days, then certainly in weeks.  Back when military programming was
a growing business, lots of programmers were willing to learn Ada.
But now, with military programming as a shrinking business, and little
interest in Ada programmers from the commercial world, why should
programmers take a jobs which requires them to learn Ada?  

Joshua Levy  (joshua@veritas.com)

Re: Is General Kind the harbinger of doom for the Mandate?

[David Emery]

>Obviously most programmers could learn Ada if they wanted to.  

That is NOT clear to me at all.  Most programmers could learn Ada
syntax, but not everyone can learn how to use Ada efficiently in the
context of software engineering.  

To reuse an old analogy of Mark Gerhardt's: "Not everyone can learn
calculus.  Should people who can't comprehend calculus be engineers?"
I'd add "Anyone can learn to draw integral signs, though..."

				dave

Re: Is General Kind the harbinger of doom for the Mandate?

[Robert I. Eachus]

In article <19930331.054448.56@almaden.ibm.com> jnestoriak@vnet.IBM.COM writes:

  > Anyone who graduates from a decent University with a degree in
  > Computer Science who can't learn a new programming language in less
  > than a month must have slept through too many classes.  Is it
  > really unreasonable to expect employers to give a few weeks of
  > education to their new hires (whether experience or from school)?

     Teaching Ada to anyone who knows software engineering is a
non-issue.  If you find software engineers today who don't know Ada,
it takes a week or two for them to learn the syntax.  However, such
people are becoming very rare...if they are good software engineers,
they have probably already learned Ada.  (Ten years ago the situation
was different, and a lot of us had the experience of teaching Ada to
good software engineers who had never been exposed to it.  It was
fun.)

      On the other hand software engineering currently is not, and may
never be, a science.  It requires among other things an ability to
recognize quality, or the lack of it.  About ten years ago I taught a
"random sample" of assembly language programmers Ada along with two
other instructors.  We each independently estimated that thirty
percent of the class would NEVER be productive Ada programmers.  (And
even though this was an eclectic group of students, they were all
working full-time as programmers.)

     Now from painful experience, I know that that class was selected
from a population which had a much higher percentage of potential
software engineers than most defence contractors.  (Or for that matter
most programming shops.  A computer manufacturer who develops and
supports their own operating systems and compilers needs a much higher
percentage of top drawer staff than an application house where
semaphores are things you see along railroads.)

     So when you insist on Ada, the what does a contractor do, if all
of his software engineers are already working on (mandated) Ada
projects?  Just think of it as evolution in action.  It ain't nice, it
ain't easy, but, in time, all the remaining quality-blind hackers will
be retired, writing video games, or flipping hamburgers.

--

					Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...

Re: Lack of Ada programmers?

[Donald Brancato]

  In regard to the question raised about the lack of Ada programmers,
I would like to submit my humble opinion.
  I am a senior undergraduate student at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical
University in Prescott, Arizona majoring in Aviation Computer Science.
Since the fall of 1989 our computer science curriculum has been centered
around Ada.  Everything from general programming concepts, graphics, data
structures, files and database systems, and software engineering has been
taught using Ada as the base language.  And, since the interest of most
students lies in the aeronautical industry, I think the language was well
chosen.  I recently returned from a 6 month Co-op with NASA -Goddard Space
Flight Center working in the Software Engineering Laboratory.  My studies
were well received, as I was working on telemetry simulators in Ada.
  I guess the thrust of my point is that the belief that there are not
enough Ada programmers has not been researched enough to be valid.  
A recent article in Communication of the ACM discussed a study done on
universities currently teaching Ada as the primary language listed over
50 universities in the U.S. alone.
   Whether you select Ada as your language of choice is not the concern
here.  It doesn't take a genius to extrapolate the concepts of one language
to any other language.  In fact, after studying Ada for a couple years I
went on to learn C, C++, and Pascal.
  Anyway, for those individuals who use this excuse to crucify Ada, I will
include my address and telephone to entertain any job opportunities.  Now
don't think that I'll be waiting by the phone drooling, I merely wanted
to make my point and provide a possible solution to the lack of Ada
programmers.

					- Michael J. Clark
					  clarkm@slab.pr.erau.edu

Re: Lack of Ada programmers?

[Michael Clark]

In article <1993Mar31.213029.1085@ennews.eas.asu.edu> dbrancat@slab.pr.erau.edu (Donald Brancato) writes:
>  In regard to the question raised about the lack of Ada programmers,
>I would like to submit my humble opinion.
>  I am a senior undergraduate student at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical
>University in Prescott, Arizona majoring in Aviation Computer Science.
>Since the fall of 1989 our computer science curriculum has been centered
>around Ada.  Everything from general programming concepts, graphics, data
>structures, files and database systems, and software engineering has been
>taught using Ada as the base language.  And, since the interest of most
>students lies in the aeronautical industry, I think the language was well
>chosen.  I recently returned from a 6 month Co-op with NASA -Goddard Space
>Flight Center working in the Software Engineering Laboratory.  My studies
>were well received, as I was working on telemetry simulators in Ada.
>  I guess the thrust of my point is that the belief that there are not
>enough Ada programmers has not been researched enough to be valid.  
>A recent article in Communication of the ACM discussed a study done on
>universities currently teaching Ada as the primary language listed over
>50 universities in the U.S. alone.
>   Whether you select Ada as your language of choice is not the concern
>here.  It doesn't take a genius to extrapolate the concepts of one language
>to any other language.  In fact, after studying Ada for a couple years I
>went on to learn C, C++, and Pascal.
>  Anyway, for those individuals who use this excuse to crucify Ada, I will
>include my address and telephone to entertain any job opportunities.  Now
>don't think that I'll be waiting by the phone drooling, I merely wanted
>to make my point and provide a possible solution to the lack of Ada
>programmers.
>
>					- Michael J. Clark
>					  clarkm@slab.pr.erau.edu
>

Please excuse my forgetfullness :

	Michael J. Clark
	E.R.A.U. Box 7877
	Prescott, AZ 86301
	(602) 776-3751

Re: Lack of Ada programmers?

[Michael Feldman]

In article <1993Mar31.213029.1085@ennews.eas.asu.edu> dbrancat@slab.pr.erau.edu (Donald Brancato) writes:

>  I guess the thrust of my point is that the belief that there are not
>enough Ada programmers has not been researched enough to be valid.  
>A recent article in Communication of the ACM discussed a study done on
>universities currently teaching Ada as the primary language listed over
>50 universities in the U.S. alone.
>   Whether you select Ada as your language of choice is not the concern
>here.  It doesn't take a genius to extrapolate the concepts of one language
>to any other language.  In fact, after studying Ada for a couple years I
>went on to learn C, C++, and Pascal.
>
...and I'll bet that your programming in those languages is better, and
more disciplined, in those languages, as a result of your having gotten
a good education in a good language.

The ones who moan about the supposed shortage of Ada programmers always
seem to be ready to invest in 5-day crash courses, at exorbitant
prices (I know about these prices because I charge them :-)), but
were not, and still are not, ready to help their local colleges get
started and up to speed with Ada. If they had listened to what we
Ada educators were saying 5 years ago, we would not be experiencing
a shortage. But that would be asking too much of US industry. Too
long range. 5 years ago, they told me, over and over, that my freshmen
were not inteesting to them, because they would not be productive
for five years. Yep, that's true. And here we are...

Oh - have you ever run into the same managers I have? They don't
want _education_, they say. Too "academic", they say. Give us
TRAINING, they say. Sigh...

Oh - thanks for plugging my CACM paper...

Cheers -

Mike Feldman
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael B. Feldman
co-chair, SIGAda Education Committee

Professor, Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
School of Engineering and Applied Science
The George Washington University
Washington, DC 20052 USA
(202) 994-5253 (voice)
(202) 994-5296 (fax)
mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Internet)

"The most important thing is to be sincere, 
and once you've learned how to fake that, you've got it made." 
-- old show-business adage
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Eductation vs. training

[Robert I. Eachus]

In article <1993Apr1.040250.6671@seas.gwu.edu> mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Michael Feldman) writes:

  > Oh - have you ever run into the same managers I have? They don't
  > want _education_, they say. Too "academic", they say. Give us
  > TRAINING, they say. Sigh...

     Why do many managers want training not education?  Well, a major
goal of education is to teach students to think for themselves.  On
the other hand most training strives to get students to do things "by
the book."  If a manager tells an educated employee to do the
impossible, he is likely to object and suggest alternatives, while the
well trained underling will bang his head against the wall until told
to stop.

     I wish this was an April Fool's joke, but it is not.  Managers
who are having trouble coping don't want problem employees, and define
problem employees as anyone who brings new problems to their
attention.  Even if the problem is a warning which can avert a major
disaster, the bearer of bad tidings is just not appreciated.  (Reminds
me of the time I told my brother, "Dave, the car you are following is
parked." {Swerve}  I don't think he talked to me for weeks...)

--

					Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...

Re: Is General Kind the harbinger of doom for the Mandate?

[John Bollenbacher]

jnestoriak@vnet.IBM.COM wrote:

: ... Anyone
: who graduates from a decent University with a degree in Computer
: Science who can't learn a new programming language in less than a
: month must have slept through too many classes.  

Well, I had been a professional programmer for 7 years (Algol, FORTRAN, C, 
PL/M...) before immersing myself in Ada and it was probably a year before I 
felt that I was no longer learning important aspects of the language (a year 
very well spent I might add).  I consider myself reasonably bright so I have 
no difficulty acceptying the claim that there is a shortage of well-trained Ada
engineers.  Actually, I'm ambivalent about the condition ;).

: 
: ********************************************************************
: * These opinions are mine only.                     John Nestoriak *
: ********************************************************************

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- John Bollenbacher                                        jhb@dale.cts.com -
- Titan Linkabit Corp.                                       (619) 552-9963 -
- 3033 Science Park Rd.                                                     -
- San Diego, Ca. 92121                                                      -
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Is General Kind the harbinger of doom for the Mandate?

[Michael Shapiro]

jhb@dale.cts.com (John Bollenbacher) writes:

> jnestoriak@vnet.IBM.COM wrote:
> 
> : ... Anyone
> : who graduates from a decent University with a degree in Computer
> : Science who can't learn a new programming language in less than a
> : month must have slept through too many classes.  
> 
> Well, I had been a professional programmer for 7 years (Algol, FORTRAN, C, 
> PL/M...) before immersing myself in Ada and it was probably a year before I 
> felt that I was no longer learning important aspects of the language (a year 
> very well spent I might add).  I consider myself reasonably bright so I have 
> no difficulty acceptying the claim that there is a shortage of well-trained A
> engineers.  Actually, I'm ambivalent about the condition ;).
> 

There's a difference between learning a language enough to use it and 
becoming extremely proficient in it.  An experienced programmer should be 
able to pick up any language similar to the one they've been using fairly 
quickly.  But they'll learn more and more features and techniques with 
use.  One of the cost models I have used (SoftCost, if I recall), assumes 
an Ada programmer is less than fully proficient until they've completed 
three projects.

--                    
INTERNET:  mshapiro@netlink.cts.com (Michael Shapiro)
UUCP:   ...!ryptyde!netlink!mshapiro
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 453-1115

Proficiency in Ada

[Michael Feldman]

In article <46we2B1w165w@netlink.cts.com> mshapiro@netlink.cts.com (Michael Shapiro) writes:
>
>There's a difference between learning a language enough to use it and 
>becoming extremely proficient in it.  An experienced programmer should be 
>able to pick up any language similar to the one they've been using fairly 
>quickly.  But they'll learn more and more features and techniques with 
>use.  One of the cost models I have used (SoftCost, if I recall), assumes 
>an Ada programmer is less than fully proficient until they've completed 
>three projects.
>
This is NOT a useful figure of merit unless it is given together with similar
figures for other languages. Do we know how many months, years, or projects
are required before a programmer is proficient in, say, Fortran or C,
sufficiently to write the kind of robust and maintainable systems we all
desire?

Without useful comparative data, you are merely perpetuating the canard
that Ada is somehow DIFFERENT, HARDER, than its predecessors or successors.

I have seen, in 10 years of doing Ada, lots of figures showing how long it
takes to train an Ada programmer, but none that do an honest comparison
of the costs to train a programmer in other languages, TO THE EXTENT THAT
THEIR CODE IS OF EQUIVALENT QUALITY. I'll bet we'd find that the numbers
are fairly equivalent; I'd like to believe that an honest comparison
would show Ada in a favorable light, but that would be speculation, as
I have not seen any such comparative data.

Mike Feldman
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael B. Feldman
co-chair, SIGAda Education Committee

Professor, Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
School of Engineering and Applied Science
The George Washington University
Washington, DC 20052 USA
(202) 994-5253 (voice)
(202) 994-5296 (fax)
mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Internet)

"The most important thing is to be sincere, 
and once you've learned how to fake that, you've got it made." 
-- old show-business adage
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Proficiency in Ada

[MILLS,JOHN M.]

Hi, Mike --
 
 (maybe someday we'll meet face to face .. anyway...)
 
In article <1993Apr4.032918.783@seas.gwu.edu> you write:
>In article <46we2B1w165w@netlink.cts.com> mshapiro@netlink.cts.com (Michael Shapiro) writes:
>>
>>There's a difference between learning a language enough to use it and 
>>becoming extremely proficient in it.  An experienced programmer should be 
>> [ Ada proficiency levels and references deleted ]

>This is NOT a useful figure of merit unless it is given together with similar
>figures for other languages. Do we know how many months, years, or projects
>are required before a programmer is proficient in, say, Fortran or C,
>sufficiently to write the kind of robust and maintainable systems we all
>desire?
 
I'm glad you mentioned it.  I was tracking this at about 0.25 concentration
level, and had decided that, given the high level of understanding required
of Ada programmers by all c.l.ada correspondents [8*>), there is probably
(by that measure) a critical shortage of competent programmers in _all_
languages.

As a mechanical engineer who has used software/firmware as parts of
controller designs for lo these past 24 years, I've seen a certain number
of well trained programmers who can run rings around me in clear, elegant
code and versatile data structures, but who clutch completely when they
must respond to asynchronous reality, or reach compromises with the electronic
designers for the simplest or most robust overall system design.  If there
were a way to teach those skills (not as replacements, but as realities and
perspectives), it would be terrific.  Naturally there are corresponding
lacunae in all our views, but the most successful and rewarding projects
I've worked on benefited from a spirit of constructive challenge between
the various disciplines: "I'll bet I can stabilize that drift in the
firmware before you can redesign the analog board ..."  I made it, but was
never able to sell them my wonderful digital rate-loop; maybe that wasn't
so bad, as the pore 'lil 8080 was already _gasping_ along.  The other side
is, " Just _one_ more shift register, and I can do wonders!  Please?
PLEASE!"

Software is a wonderfully abstract, maleable medium, but virtual reality
is no substitute for the real thing.

.. Now, if I can just get down off my hobbyhorse .. @#$%!! .. stuck in the
saddle again!

Regards --jmm--

-- 
John M. Mills, SRE; Georgia Tech/GTRI/TSDL, Atlanta, GA 30332
uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!jm59
Internet: john.m.mills@gtri.gatech.edu
EBENE Chocolat Noir 72% de Cacao - WEISS - 42000 St.Etienne - very fine

Re: Proficiency in Ada

[Michael D Shapiro]

In article <1993Apr4.032918.783@seas.gwu.edu> mfeldman@uunet.uu.net (Michael Fe
ldman) writes:
>In article <46we2B1w165w@netlink.cts.com> mshapiro@netlink.cts.com (Michael Sh
apiro) writes:
>>
>>There's a difference between learning a language enough to use it and 
>>becoming extremely proficient in it.  An experienced programmer should be 
>>able to pick up any language similar to the one they've been using fairly 
>>quickly.  But they'll learn more and more features and techniques with 
>>use.  One of the cost models I have used (SoftCost, if I recall), assumes 
>>an Ada programmer is less than fully proficient until they've completed 
>>three projects.

>This is NOT a useful figure of merit unless it is given together with similar
>figures for other languages. Do we know how many months, years, or projects
>are required before a programmer is proficient in, say, Fortran or C,
>sufficiently to write the kind of robust and maintainable systems we all
>desire?
> 
>Without useful comparative data, you are merely perpetuating the canard
>that Ada is somehow DIFFERENT, HARDER, than its predecessors or successors.

I have no problem with that, and I make no comparisons.  I
merely reported that in one respected software costing model,
SoftCost-Ada, three Ada projects "under the belt" is taken as
the measure that a programmer will be fully productive in Ada.
The whole point of costing models is to find some easy measure
that can be extrapolated to give an indication of the actual
process.  ("X is a good model of Y if you can get a reasonable
answer on some question about Y by asking that question about
X.")

In developing their model, Reifer Consultants (213-373-8728 was
the number a couple of years ago; I think their area code
changed to 310 recently) found that a growing experience curve,
leveling off after three Ada projects appropriately predicted
productivity.  This means both that people will be less than
fully productive before they've completed three projects and
will not be more productive after they've done three.  (That's
if I remember right from my course in using the model a couple
of years ago.)

I, too, would be interested in measures for other languages.
Most software costing models I've seen count experience in years
rather than number of projects.