Re: Pascal or C as a first lang

[cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!howland.]

In article <9309081805.AA27680@ajpo.sei.cmu.edu> 
JD3GTRCW.TRANSCOM@transcom.safb.af.mil (CONROY WILLIAM F) writes:

>   In article <1993Sep08.003727.36807@source.asset.com> 
>   tannend@source.asset.com (David Tannen) writes:
>
>      Since this thread won't go away, I thought I would throw
>      out some information from a recent Dr. Dobbs Journal (DDJ#203).
>
>      ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>      Wirth:  "He refrained from criticizing C, however, until the 
>      closing panel, where he said that 'hacking is in' and claimed,
>      that 'most programmers enjoy working by trial and error.'  
>      Looking at Ritchie, who was sitting next to him, Wirth continued:
>      'The most important promoter of this trend:  C.'  He said that
>      languages such as C are useful for bootstrapping software onto
>      a new machine, but their use should be only 'temporary'."
>
>      "Ritchie, ..., noted that Wirth's points were 'well-taken' and
>      acknowledged that 'it is possible to use C in a better way than
>      people do.'"
>
>      "In his earlier talk on C, Richie actually said good things about
>      Pascal, even admitting that Pascal is 'elegant'."
>
>      "What should students learn as a first programming language?  
>      Many colleges are beginning to teach C as a first language.  Ritchie
>      didn't endorse this trend.  Any approach tat tends to produce 
>      dependence on a particular language is bad, he said, suggesting that
>      Scheme might be a good choice.  ... Wirth asked 'Are you teaching
>      a skill or [providing] general education?'  In the former case,
>      he recommended Ada; in the latter, he advised using 'a simpler
>      language' - but not C.  'I view the landslide of C use in education
>      as rather a calamity,' he said."
>
>   I hate to offend the masters, but I have to wonder what world they are
>   living in. Ada? Who uses Ada? The question of which language is better
>   for programming in is not really as important as which language is
>   more commonly used. No college grad is going to get a job programming
>   in Ada (or at least very few are). But C is everywhere. Furthermore,
>   who has access to an Ada compiler? You can get free C compilers (or
>   damn cheap ones) for any machine. So which is going to be more useful
>   to a college student? Which is going to be more useful to someone
>   looking for a job? Obviously C!

Uh, you're missing the point.  The quotes you included aren't about
"which language is better for programming in", they're about "which
language is best as a *first* language".  And the one they're most
likely to be using in the real world is not necessarily the one they
should be learning first.  Beginning programmers don't even grasp
basic programming comments that have become second nature to us
veterans, and I think C would be just too scary for people who know
virtually nothing about programming.  (Perhaps Mike Feldman or someone
else with teaching experience can confirm or deny this.)

Pascal was designed as a teaching language, which I think makes it a
good choice as a first language.  Ada looks a lot like Pascal, so it
should be about as good.  Also, I believe both languages tend to
enforce good programming practices more than C does, which is a
definite plus for someone who's just learning.

                                -- Adam