Ada?

Ada?

[anymous]

I was thinking about learning ada.  I was wondering were the language was
heading. Is it obsolete, or is it still in use, and if it is, what are its
uses.  I also know Visual Basic, will this help me any?  Thanks for any
info.

Re: Ada?

[chris.danx]

"anymous" <anymous@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:4ezc8.1103$48.60681@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...
> I was thinking about learning ada.  I was wondering were the language was
> heading. Is it obsolete, or is it still in use, and if it is, what are its
> uses.  I also know Visual Basic, will this help me any?  Thanks for any
> info.

Try http://www.adapower.com and
http://adahome.com/Tutorials/Lovelace/lovelace.htm for more information on
the language.  You can probably find a link to the public version of the
GNAT compiler in adapower, which is good (it's free).


Chris

Re: Ada?

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <4ezc8.1103$48.60681@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com>, "anymous" <anymous@nowhere.com> writes:
> I was thinking about learning ada.  I was wondering were the language was
> heading. Is it obsolete, or is it still in use, and if it is, what are its
> uses.  I also know Visual Basic, will this help me any?  Thanks for any
> info.

Knowing another programming language is good.
Presuming the next programming language will be just like the last is bad.

Ada is particularly useful for projects where the software must be
correct, such as running machinery that might kill people.  Although
it can be used for any project, like a web browser, companies working
on projects like that sometimes choose languages whose compilers will
not be so tenacious about reporting programming errors.

A good mental attitude for using Ada is to think of the compiler
as an assistant that will help you find errors before you deliver
them to the user.

Re: Ada?

[Nick Roberts]

On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:21:30 -0600, "anymous" <anymous@nowhere.com>
strongly typed:

>I was thinking about learning ada.  I was wondering were the language was
>heading. Is it obsolete, or is it still in use, and if it is, what are its
>uses.  I also know Visual Basic, will this help me any?  Thanks for any
>info.

I encourage you to learn Ada, at least to a basic level (as it were ;-)
since the knowledge will certainly help you to use and understand other
languages better (yes, really true).

Ada is not obsolete yet, and will not become utterly obsolete for a long
time. It is, however, used for only a tiny percentage of all the
professional programming projects in the world, and this seems unlikely to
change significantly in the foreseeable future (much as we Ada enthusiasts
would wish otherwise). The projects Ada is used in may be considered
'glamorous' (e.g. the flight systems of the Space Shuttle); but getting a
job programming in Ada is relatively difficult, even in the US (and
reportedly near impossible in most other countries).

On the other hand, there is a huge demand for Visual Basic at the moment
(which may well shift towards Java, C#, and maybe other 'flavour' languages
in the not-too-distant future). You should endeavour to learn either VB or
Java, if you may be looking to get a programming job to pay the rent. I'd
also suggest it's important you learn elementary SQL (if you haven't
already).

If you are in the unusual position of being able to choose a programming
language for a particular project, then the next question is certainly
"What is your application?" (The application domain for VB is very
different to that of Ada, and the overlap is small.)

My advice for getting a programming job is: find out as much as you can
about what the prospective employer is doing, and needs (or is likely to
need) programmers for, and then walk in and (LIE!) make out your skills and
interests are all in those areas (with a totally straight face); whichever
languages they use or require skill in, tell them you know them all
intimately (again, just LIE, even if you've never of heard of them); always
be courteous, but assume the company -- no matter how big, slick, or
impressive -- is a pile of pig excrement to work for, and ask as many
diplomatic questions as you can to allow them to prove otherwise (and if
they fail to prove otherwise, take another offer if you have one). Simply
do not worry you are overselling yourself (just take it from me). Emphasise
practicality.

As ever, I add the advice that, in reality, the way you program is always
more important than the language you program in, and that the language
chosen should always be the one 'right for the job', just like a carpenter
will select just the right tool, from a box of many. The more languages you
know (to a level where you can use it in anger), the better a programmer
you are; it's not _which_ languages you know that counts, but how many.
There's also things such as your knowledge of libraries, programming tricks
and techniques, algorithms, and debugging. Above all, simple patience
typically marks out an unusually useful programmer.

On the other hand, do not overload your brain (this is actually a serious
comment). Do stretch yourself,  but not too far. We all have limitations:
find yours, and do not grossly exceed them; do not hurt the most precious
thing you have (your mind). If you ever get to the point where (for more
than just a few days) you don't enjoy programming any more, quit it as soon
as you diplomatically can, and pursue a better career (there are many).

Enough advice! Good luck. 

-- 
Nick Roberts

Re: Ada?

[Georg Bauhaus]

Nick Roberts <nickroberts@ukf.net> wrote:
 
: My advice for getting a programming job is: find out as much as you can
: about what the prospective employer is doing, and needs (or is likely to
: need) programmers for, and then walk in and (LIE!) make out your skills and
: interests are all in those areas (with a totally straight face); whichever
: languages they use or require skill in, tell them you know them all
: intimately (again, just LIE, even if you've never of heard of them);

This and the following information might, among other things,
well be considered country specific, just to mention.

: always
: be courteous, but assume the company -- no matter how big, slick, or
: impressive -- is a pile of pig excrement to work for, and ask as many
: diplomatic questions as you can to allow them to prove otherwise (and if
: they fail to prove otherwise, take another offer if you have one). Simply
: do not worry you are overselling yourself (just take it from me). Emphasise
: practicality.

Re: Ada?

[Enrico A.]

Ciao,
 
>but getting a
> job programming in Ada is relatively difficult, even in the US (and
> reportedly near impossible in most other countries).

here in Italy Ada is pretty unknown, I think only 3 or 4 companies use
it. For sure Agusta use Ada in some projects and someone told me Fiat
too.
I've to tell you something : some time ago i went to the biggest
bookstore here in Milan (5 floors full of books) to buy an Ada book in
Italian, but I didn't found it, so i asked to a librarian there and he
laught a lot and said to me "Ahahah Ada ahahah you're crazy!! Who uses
Ada in this world? Ahahah... go and use something else, like C
ahahah". Very disappointing. Of course there were (there are) no books
about Ada in Italian on print.
But, let me know, a good Ada programmer, in the US, is paid well? I
ask that because i think i'll come to live in the USA soon (one or two
years) with my young wife and my lil' child (he was born less than 1
Month ago)...
Ciao,
   Enrico B.A.

Re: Ada?

[Colin Paul Gloster]

In article <98104da8.0202270726.97da933@posting.google.com>, Et
27 Feb 2002 07:26:13 -0800 ETnrico A. wrote:
  "Ciao,
   
 >but getting a
 > job programming in Ada is relatively difficult, even in the US (and
 > reportedly near impossible in most other countries).
  
  here in Italy Ada is pretty unknown, I think only 3 or 4 companies use
  it. For sure Agusta use Ada in some projects and someone told me Fiat
  too.
  I've to tell you something : some time ago i went to the biggest
  bookstore here in Milan (5 floors full of books) to buy an Ada book in
  Italian, but I didn't found it, so i asked to a librarian there and he
  laught a lot and said to me "Ahahah Ada ahahah you're crazy!! Who uses
  Ada in this world? Ahahah... go and use something else, like C
  ahahah". Very disappointing. Of course there were (there are) no books
  about Ada in Italian on print.
  But, let me know, a good Ada programmer, in the US, is paid well? I
  ask that because i think i'll come to live in the USA soon (one or two
  years) with my young wife and my lil' child (he was born less than 1
  Month ago)...
  Ciao,
     Enrico B.A"

If there are Italian companies you know of which use Ada, why not
work for them? I think you would find it hard to get work in the
U.S.A. because there is official national interest bias towards
hiring U.S. citizens.

I think you will find it hard to work with Ada in the U.S.A. because
it would be tougher to get miliatry clearance; and a former corrspondent 
of mine at Meteosat reported extreme opposition to his notion of
working for NASA. However, I think that foreigners can work for
companies which work for NASA (and may actually have their offices at
NASA sites).

Also, consider other European countries with Ada users.

Congratulations on your newly born child.t

Re: Ada?

[Ted Dennison]

Colin Paul Gloster <Colin_Paul_Gloster@ACM.org> wrote in message news:<slrna9ekvf.9nt.Colin_Paul_Gloster@syrah.ncl.ac.uk>...
> I think you will find it hard to work with Ada in the U.S.A. because
> it would be tougher to get miliatry clearance; and a former corrspondent 

I don't know about that. Perhaps it is a bit tougher, but I've
certianly never seen that reflected in the numbers of foriegn-born
coworkers I've had. I had one heavy-clearance job back in the early
'90s where nearly 1/3 of the software developers were born in
communist countries! That particular job happened to be developing the
software for a COMSEC (communications security...aka encryption)
device for the NSA. Admittedly, none of them were foriegn nationals at
the time.

But my current job has 2 foriegn nationals working on it (inculding my
supervisor); one A Brit and the other Canadian. As a matter of fact,
my typing of this posting was interrupted by us comparing the pretty
designs on their green cards. :-)

My previous job had 3 foriegn nationals working on it in software (out
of about 9); one Indian, one Lebaneese, and one southeast asian (I
never asked where exactly).

I currently have other collegues here (not working on the same
project) who are from Pakistan, China, Japan, Africa, and Malaysia.
This isn't in some huge cosmopolotian coastal city either, its in the
middle of Oklahoma.

The fact of the matter is that the USA is a *nation* of immigrants.
Anyone who thinks we are somehow "against" the rest of the world
doesn't really appreciate the situation.


-- 
T.E.D.
Home     -  mailto:dennison@telepath.com (Yahoo: Ted_Dennison)
Homepage -  http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html

Re: Ada?

[Dan Andreatta]

Dunno in IT, but in chemistry/physics/others you have to be a citizen or a 
foreign national to work in a national lab (like Livermore or Los Alamos). 
A visa is not enough (B, J, whatever). Of course, you need clearance.

Dan

PS: The green card is _really_ nice... aesthetically and practically :-)

Re: Ada?

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <Xns91D6AD7FA7588andreattamailchemsce@12.252.202.62>, Dan Andreatta <andreatta@mail.chem.sc.edu.REMOVEME> writes:
> Dunno in IT, but in chemistry/physics/others you have to be a citizen or a 
> foreign national to work in a national lab (like Livermore or Los Alamos). 

I was under the impression that the term "foreign national" meant
anyone who was not a citizen.

But is is reassuring you have to be one or the other to work there.
I would hate to think of all the good jobs going to rocks :-)

Re: Ada?

[Ted Dennison]

Dan Andreatta <andreatta@mail.chem.sc.edu.REMOVEME> wrote in message news:<Xns91D6AD7FA7588andreattamailchemsce@12.252.202.62>...
> Dunno in IT, but in chemistry/physics/others you have to be a citizen or a 
> foreign national to work in a national lab (like Livermore or Los Alamos). 
> A visa is not enough (B, J, whatever). Of course, you need clearance.

Well, I should be a bit more specific and say that being a US citizen
is *not* a requirement for getting a clearance. However, there are a
lot of classified jobs that are also "noforn" (no foriegn nationals).
I had one job where we had to stamp "noforn" on all documents,
printouts, and notes we made. Oddly, that was the one where I had 3
fellow developers who were born in communist countries though. :-)

As the above anecdote implies, one does not have to be US-born for
even the most classified of jobs. But becomming a citizen can take
many years (>10). However, this level of secrecy is not common, and
the lesser levels have little problem with foriegn workers. I've only
worked on 3 jobs that required clearances, and the one above was the
only one where I actually had to handle classified material. Perhaps
some government agencies have trouble with foriegn nationals (I
wouldn't know), but most of the action is with the contractors anyway.
:-)

The biggest worry I'd have for someone comming over here to work would
be the "green card servitude" issue. Getting your green card can take
quite a while (my lebaneese coworker was waiting for 14 years), and
you are only allowed to be here in the meantime if you are working for
someone. That makes for great leverage for your employer, since if the
mood strikes them they can fire you, then call INS and have you
deported (since you aren't working for anyone any more). Some
companies are moral and restrain themselves from abusing this power,
but not all of them. I've heard some real horror stories.

-- 
T.E.D.
Home     -  mailto:dennison@telepath.com (Yahoo: Ted_Dennison)
Homepage -  http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html

Re: Ada?

[Preben Randhol]

On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 12:58:04 -0700, Jerry Petrey wrote:
><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
><html>

Turn OFF html when you post on usenet.

-- 
Preben Randhol         �For me, Ada95 puts back the joy in programming.�

Re: Ada?

[Adrian Hoe]

Ted Dennison wrote:
> 
> 
> The fact of the matter is that the USA is a *nation* of immigrants.
> Anyone who thinks we are somehow "against" the rest of the world
> doesn't really appreciate the situation.


I know, I know... This isn't the right place to talk about politics
here. But since Ted has posted his view, I just would like to comment.
:)

Ted is right that USA is a land of freedom and a nation of immigrants.
There are many opportunities there if one is willing to leave his home
and come to USA! I think everyone in this world appreciate this
situation but disagree on USA political base.

I have many many friends in USA, and that includes Americans, Jamaicans,
Germans, Malaysians!, Chinese and Vietnamese and even CLA. I like
America but I personally disagree her politically. (I am not a
politician, ok? This is just my personal point of view :)

I had got a consulting job (doing Ada) in USA couple years back but I
did not take up the offer simply because it took too much hassle to get
a working visa. But that did not stop me doing Ada. With my free spirit
roaming and the current trend of globalization and with the Internet,
the world is equivalent, I think.
-- 
                                       -- Adrian Hoe
                                       -- http://adrianhoe.com

Re: Ada?

[Marin David Condic]

You're right - this isn't the forum for politics.

a) Not all Ada jobs in the USA are in defense/government related projects -
hence its up to the company in question as to whether or not they want to
hire a foreign national & up to INS, et alia, to decide if you can get into
the country and legally work.

b) Not all defense/government related work that may be done in Ada is going
to be classified, or classified at a level that precludes foreign nationals
from holding those jobs. Hence, go back to "a" above.

c) Some defense/government related work *is* going to be done at a
classification level that precludes foreign nationals even if they do have
work permits from INS, permenent resident status, etc. (Try getting a job as
an airline baggage handler without citizenship these days. :-)

d) Not all Ada work is done in the USA - in fact there might be reasons to
suspect that Ada is more popular outside the US than in the land of its
birth. So don't preclude the possibility of looking for Ada work wherever
you live.

e) In countries where Free Enterprise is not against the law, it is always
possible to invent your own job. If you like working in Ada and have some
notion of how you could create a business that would do that, you might be
quite successful & have a job working with Ada at that point. You can do
that in any place where you can identify a need & go about filling it. (BTW:
If the object of the game is to get into the US, rather than simply to
program in Ada, this is one method of gaining entry. That is to say,
bringing a business into the US - or partnering in a business, etc.)

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Senior Software Engineer
Pace Micro Technology Americas    www.pacemicro.com
Enabling the digital revolution
e-Mail:    marin.condic@pacemicro.com


"Adrian Hoe" <byhoe@greenlime.com> wrote in message
news:3C97EF08.1AFB3D05@greenlime.com...
> Ted Dennison wrote:
> >
> >
> > The fact of the matter is that the USA is a *nation* of immigrants.
> > Anyone who thinks we are somehow "against" the rest of the world
> > doesn't really appreciate the situation.
>
>
> I know, I know... This isn't the right place to talk about politics
> here. But since Ted has posted his view, I just would like to comment.
> :)
>
> Ted is right that USA is a land of freedom and a nation of immigrants.
> There are many opportunities there if one is willing to leave his home
> and come to USA! I think everyone in this world appreciate this
> situation but disagree on USA political base.
>
> I have many many friends in USA, and that includes Americans, Jamaicans,
> Germans, Malaysians!, Chinese and Vietnamese and even CLA. I like
> America but I personally disagree her politically. (I am not a
> politician, ok? This is just my personal point of view :)
>
> I had got a consulting job (doing Ada) in USA couple years back but I
> did not take up the offer simply because it took too much hassle to get
> a working visa. But that did not stop me doing Ada. With my free spirit
> roaming and the current trend of globalization and with the Internet,
> the world is equivalent, I think.
> --
>                                        -- Adrian Hoe
>                                        -- http://adrianhoe.com

Re: Ada?

[Adrian Hoe]

Marin David Condic wrote:
> 
> You're right - this isn't the forum for politics.
> 
> a) Not all Ada jobs in the USA are in defense/government related projects -
> hence its up to the company in question as to whether or not they want to
> hire a foreign national & up to INS, et alia, to decide if you can get into
> the country and legally work.
> 
> b) Not all defense/government related work that may be done in Ada is going
> to be classified, or classified at a level that precludes foreign nationals
> from holding those jobs. Hence, go back to "a" above.
> 
> c) Some defense/government related work *is* going to be done at a
> classification level that precludes foreign nationals even if they do have
> work permits from INS, permenent resident status, etc. (Try getting a job as
> an airline baggage handler without citizenship these days. :-)


After 9/11, it is harder to apply for visiting Visa and not to mention
working Visa.



> d) Not all Ada work is done in the USA - in fact there might be reasons to
> suspect that Ada is more popular outside the US than in the land of its
> birth. So don't preclude the possibility of looking for Ada work wherever
> you live.


You can find Ada work in China, Vietname, Singapore(?), Japan, Korea,
Honk Kong and India (countries from the far east). Oh yes... Malaysia. I
have colleagues that spin off joint-ventures between our company and
China companies (using Ada), and this is (e). We can see that Ada has
gained more acceptance in certain area of the industries in the far
east.



> e) In countries where Free Enterprise is not against the law, it is always
> possible to invent your own job. If you like working in Ada and have some
> notion of how you could create a business that would do that, you might be
> quite successful & have a job working with Ada at that point. You can do
> that in any place where you can identify a need & go about filling it. (BTW:
> If the object of the game is to get into the US, rather than simply to
> program in Ada, this is one method of gaining entry. That is to say,
> bringing a business into the US - or partnering in a business, etc.)
> 
> MDC
> --
> Marin David Condic

-- 
Remove *nospam* to e-mail me.          -- Adrian Hoe
                                       -- http://adrianhoe.com

Re: Ada?

[Richard Riehle]

Adrian Hoe wrote:

> You can find Ada work in China, Vietname, Singapore(?), Japan, Korea,
> Honk Kong and India (countries from the far east). Oh yes... Malaysia. I
> have colleagues that spin off joint-ventures between our company and
> China companies (using Ada), and this is (e). We can see that Ada has
> gained more acceptance in certain area of the industries in the far
> east.

Also, Turkey, Iran, and Australia.   And I am getting positive feedback on
my little booklet, Ada Distilled, from places I never expected.

Richard Riehle

Waay OT - America (was: Ada?)

[Ted Dennison]

Adrian Hoe <byhoe@greenlime.com> wrote in message news:<3C97EF08.1AFB3D05@greenlime.com>...
> Germans, Malaysians!, Chinese and Vietnamese and even CLA. I like
> America but I personally disagree her politically. (I am not a
> politician, ok? This is just my personal point of view :)

Well, realise that this doesn't make a whole lot of sense. "America"
isn't an entity that has one single coherent political view with which
one can decide to disagree. There are about 300 million different
politicial views in this country.  Many of them are bound to fall on
either side of yours.

I noticed the other day that a poll was run in various middle eastern
countries asking their views of America. To no one's great suprise,
the overwhelming majority view was unfavorable. However, I was shocked
to see that there was always at least a %20 favorable rating. While
far from a majority, that's a significant portion of the populace. It
shows that you can't really tar a whole country with having a single
political view. There's diversity everywhere you look.

-- 
T.E.D.
Home     -  mailto:dennison@telepath.com (Yahoo: Ted_Dennison)
Homepage -  http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html

Re: Ada?

[Adrian Hoe]

muaddib@digibank.it (Enrico A.) wrote in message news:<98104da8.0202270726.97da933@posting.google.com>...
> Ciao,
>  
> >but getting a
> > job programming in Ada is relatively difficult, even in the US (and
> > reportedly near impossible in most other countries).
> 
> here in Italy Ada is pretty unknown, I think only 3 or 4 companies use
> it. For sure Agusta use Ada in some projects and someone told me Fiat
> too.
> I've to tell you something : some time ago i went to the biggest
> bookstore here in Milan (5 floors full of books) to buy an Ada book in
> Italian, but I didn't found it, so i asked to a librarian there and he
> laught a lot and said to me "Ahahah Ada ahahah you're crazy!! Who uses
> Ada in this world? Ahahah... go and use something else, like C
> ahahah". Very disappointing. Of course there were (there are) no books
> about Ada in Italian on print.
> But, let me know, a good Ada programmer, in the US, is paid well? I
> ask that because i think i'll come to live in the USA soon (one or two
> years) with my young wife and my lil' child (he was born less than 1
> Month ago)...
> Ciao,
>    Enrico B.A.


Living standard is high in the US and almost 1/3 of your salary go to
your taxes. Each state has different tax rates. You should find out
regarding taxes, living expenses, rental, etc. US$4000-US$6000 a month
is merely enough for one to survive. I hope you have got more than
this figure. You should also find out more about health care (health
care is very expensive in US) and health insurance. You should have
insurance to cover the health care for you, your wive and your child.

But Ada jobs usually pay high in US even you are not working for
Millitary or so.

This is just my opinion and for the sake of the archive, so you should
find out from your friends or relatives (if any) living in US.

                                       -- Adrian Hoe
                                       -- http://adrianhoe.com

Re: Ada?

[DPH]

On 19 Mar 2002 17:41:29 -0800, byhoe@greenlime.com (Adrian Hoe) wrote:

>muaddib@digibank.it (Enrico A.) wrote in message news:<98104da8.0202270726.97da933@posting.google.com>...
>> Ciao,
>>  
>> >but getting a
>> > job programming in Ada is relatively difficult, even in the US (and
>> > reportedly near impossible in most other countries).
>> 
>> here in Italy Ada is pretty unknown, I think only 3 or 4 companies use
>> it. For sure Agusta use Ada in some projects and someone told me Fiat
>> too.
>> I've to tell you something : some time ago i went to the biggest
>> bookstore here in Milan (5 floors full of books) to buy an Ada book in
>> Italian, but I didn't found it, so i asked to a librarian there and he
>> laught a lot and said to me "Ahahah Ada ahahah you're crazy!! Who uses
>> Ada in this world? Ahahah... go and use something else, like C
>> ahahah". Very disappointing. Of course there were (there are) no books
>> about Ada in Italian on print.
>> But, let me know, a good Ada programmer, in the US, is paid well? I
>> ask that because i think i'll come to live in the USA soon (one or two
>> years) with my young wife and my lil' child (he was born less than 1
>> Month ago)...
>> Ciao,
>>    Enrico B.A.
>
>
>Living standard is high in the US and almost 1/3 of your salary go to
>your taxes. Each state has different tax rates. You should find out
>regarding taxes, living expenses, rental, etc. US$4000-US$6000 a month
>is merely enough for one to survive.

Oh, well, it isn't all _that_ bad.  Survival can be accomplished at
$1500 a month and sometimes less - but its just survival - no comfort.
You'd be known as "poor".

$4000 - $6000 a month is pretty good money, depending on where you
make it.  I don't make $6000, and I do pretty good in Virginia, a high
cost state.  A lot more than just "surviving", for sure.  It'd be a
lot more comfortable in Indianapolis, Indiana, or Orlando, Florida
tho.

>I hope you have got more than
>this figure. You should also find out more about health care (health
>care is very expensive in US) and health insurance. You should have
>insurance to cover the health care for you, your wive and your child.

Health care insurance is very important, all right.

>But Ada jobs usually pay high in US even you are not working for
>Millitary or so.

Ada programmers, being relatively rare, do get paid well, usually.

Dave Head

>This is just my opinion and for the sake of the archive, so you should
>find out from your friends or relatives (if any) living in US.
>
>                                       -- Adrian Hoe
>                                       -- http://adrianhoe.com

Re: Ada?

[Reinert Korsnes]

Adrian Hoe wrote:

> muaddib@digibank.it (Enrico A.) wrote in message
> news:<98104da8.0202270726.97da933@posting.google.com>...
>> Ciao,
>>  
>> >but getting a
>> > job programming in Ada is relatively difficult, even in the US (and
>> > reportedly near impossible in most other countries).
>> 
>> here in Italy Ada is pretty unknown, I think only 3 or 4 companies use

Just curious:

They make much Ada software for ESA (European Space Agency) in Italy ?
Esrin ?

reinert


>> it. For sure Agusta use Ada in some projects and someone told me Fiat
>> too.
>> I've to tell you something : some time ago i went to the biggest
>> bookstore here in Milan (5 floors full of books) to buy an Ada book in
>> Italian, but I didn't found it, so i asked to a librarian there and he
>> laught a lot and said to me "Ahahah Ada ahahah you're crazy!! Who uses
>> Ada in this world? Ahahah... go and use something else, like C
>> ahahah". Very disappointing. Of course there were (there are) no books
>> about Ada in Italian on print.
>> But, let me know, a good Ada programmer, in the US, is paid well? I
>> ask that because i think i'll come to live in the USA soon (one or two
>> years) with my young wife and my lil' child (he was born less than 1
>> Month ago)...
>> Ciao,
>>    Enrico B.A.
> 
> 
> Living standard is high in the US and almost 1/3 of your salary go to
> your taxes. Each state has different tax rates. You should find out
> regarding taxes, living expenses, rental, etc. US$4000-US$6000 a month
> is merely enough for one to survive. I hope you have got more than
> this figure. You should also find out more about health care (health
> care is very expensive in US) and health insurance. You should have
> insurance to cover the health care for you, your wive and your child.
> 
> But Ada jobs usually pay high in US even you are not working for
> Millitary or so.
> 
> This is just my opinion and for the sake of the archive, so you should
> find out from your friends or relatives (if any) living in US.
> 
>                                        -- Adrian Hoe
>                                        -- http://adrianhoe.com

Re: Ada?

[Gary Scott]

Adrian Hoe wrote:
> 
> muaddib@digibank.it (Enrico A.) wrote in message news:<98104da8.0202270726.97da933@posting.google.com>...
> > Ciao,
> >
> > >but getting a
> > > job programming in Ada is relatively difficult, even in the US (and
> > > reportedly near impossible in most other countries).
> >
> > here in Italy Ada is pretty unknown, I think only 3 or 4 companies use
> > it. For sure Agusta use Ada in some projects and someone told me Fiat
> > too.
> > I've to tell you something : some time ago i went to the biggest
> > bookstore here in Milan (5 floors full of books) to buy an Ada book in
> > Italian, but I didn't found it, so i asked to a librarian there and he
> > laught a lot and said to me "Ahahah Ada ahahah you're crazy!! Who uses
> > Ada in this world? Ahahah... go and use something else, like C
> > ahahah". Very disappointing. Of course there were (there are) no books
> > about Ada in Italian on print.
> > But, let me know, a good Ada programmer, in the US, is paid well? I
> > ask that because i think i'll come to live in the USA soon (one or two
> > years) with my young wife and my lil' child (he was born less than 1
> > Month ago)...
> > Ciao,
> >    Enrico B.A.
> 
> Living standard is high in the US and almost 1/3 of your salary go to
> your taxes. Each state has different tax rates. You should find out
> regarding taxes, living expenses, rental, etc. US$4000-US$6000 a month
> is merely enough for one to survive. I hope you have got more than
> this figure. You should also find out more about health care (health
> care is very expensive in US) and health insurance. You should have
> insurance to cover the health care for you, your wive and your child.
> 

Well, this is a very broad generalization.  There are areas in the US
where cost of living is beyond belief (well almost).  There are other
desirable locations that have very low cost of living.  In my case, I
live in a state with no income taxes and fairly low property taxes.  
Still, I could move back to rural Indiana and live a very good life on
the above income (actually preferable to where I live now, but I'd have
difficulty making as much) .

> But Ada jobs usually pay high in US even you are not working for
> Millitary or so.
> 
> This is just my opinion and for the sake of the archive, so you should
> find out from your friends or relatives (if any) living in US.
> 
>                                        -- Adrian Hoe
>                                        -- http://adrianhoe.com


-- 

Gary Scott
mailto:scottg@flash.net

mailto:webmaster@fortranlib.com
http://www.fortranlib.com

Support the GNU Fortran G95 Project:  http://g95.sourceforge.net

Re: Ada?

[Ken Pinard]

I learned Ada orginally when I was working on a Masters degree in CS. The
major advantage was that I spent about 1/5 the time doing the home work as
any other student in my class (using Meridian Ada on an 8080 computer).

The concepts used in Ada development are sound foundations for any language.
I have programmed in many languages in the last 20 years, from Fortran, C,
Ada, Pascal, VB. Knowing Ada has helped me develpment applications that are
more universal and easier to maintain.

Are there jobs, That is always the a good question. If I was willing to move
I could still be doing Ada now. But, I want to live in an area focusing on
Java. I currently use VB for most applications. But, because of the
direction of VB.Net (going to C++ style and problems) I am looking at Ada
again for developing a Windows application.  At least Microsoft can't pull
the rug out from under me again.

My opinion for what it is worth,
Ken

"anymous" <anymous@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:4ezc8.1103$48.60681@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...
> I was thinking about learning ada.  I was wondering were the language was
> heading. Is it obsolete, or is it still in use, and if it is, what are its
> uses.  I also know Visual Basic, will this help me any?  Thanks for any
> info.
>
>
>

Re: Ada?

[Christoph Grein]

> d) Not all Ada work is done in the USA - in fact there might be reasons to
> suspect that Ada is more popular outside the US than in the land of its
> birth.

Jean Ichbiah is French. Wasn't it in France where she was born (developed)? Of 
course 
DoD begat her, so to speak :-)

Re: Ada?

[sk]

Hi,

>Jean Ichbiah is French. Wasn't it in France 
>where she was born (developed)? Of course DoD 
>begat her, so to speak :-)

... SHE ... HER ...

???

Is this what people mean by "gender bending" ?

 o o
  |
 \_/

-- 
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Re: Ada?

[sk]

Hi,

Ooops ! 

It looks like 

"Christoph Grein <christoph.grein@eurocopter.com>"

might have been referring to Ada and not Ichbiah,
bad reading sorry!

--  
-------------------------------------
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Re: Ada?

[Christoph Grein]

From: sk <noname@myob.com>
> >Jean Ichbiah is French. Wasn't it in France 
> >where she was born (developed)? Of course DoD 
> >begat her, so to speak :-)
> 
> ... SHE ... HER ...
> 
> ???
> 
> Is this what people mean by "gender bending" ?
----------
> Ooops ! 
> 
> It looks like 
> 
> "Christoph Grein <christoph.grein@eurocopter.com>"
> 
> might have been referring to Ada and not Ichbiah,
> bad reading sorry!

Of course I meant Ada (the language, not the person).

The name "Jean" in France is male, in English, it's female :-b

Re: Ada?

[Ted Dennison]

Christoph Grein <christoph.grein@eurocopter.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.1016785862.1571.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>...
> The name "Jean" in France is male, in English, it's female :-b

Yup. It happens to be my sister's name, as a matter of fact. But here
its pronouced identicaly to the male "Gene" (which is my dad's name).

I belive the French "Jean" is roughly equivalent to the English
"John".


-- 
T.E.D.
Home     -  mailto:dennison@telepath.com (Yahoo: Ted_Dennison)
Homepage -  http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html

Re: Ada?

[Jean-Pierre Rosen]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 425 bytes --]


"Ted Dennison" <dennison@telepath.com> a �crit dans le message news:
> I belive the French "Jean" is roughly equivalent to the English
> "John".
Yes... although in some contexts, the French "Jean" is equivalent to the US "Denim" :-)

Oh boy, how far OT can you get...

--
---------------------------------------------------------
           J-P. Rosen (rosen@adalog.fr)
Visit Adalog's web site at http://www.adalog.fr

Re: Ada?

[sk]

Hi,

You misread my error, I read 

>Jean Ichbiah is French. Wasn't it in France where 
>she was born ...

I know "Jean" is a male name in France, and I 
was thinking that YOU had made the false English
language assumption about Ichbiah.

Sorry again for not re-reading the full context 
of the original sentence.

This is waaaaaay OT.
-- 
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Ada#

[fabio de francesco]

Hi,

I am not able to find informations about Ada#. When trying a search of
Ada# with Google it returns Ada links.

I suppose that Ada# is Ada for .NET, isn't it? So it should works with
Linux MONO too, but I don't even find any reference to Ada# in
www.go-mono.com site.

1) Where can I get more informations about it?

2) Is it a totally different language from Ada95, the same way C# is
different from C and C++? I'm really interested on Ada# only if it is
not much different from Ada95.

3) Any tutorial on how to use Ada95/Ada# with MONO on the Web?

4) What do some of you using Ada# (if there is someone using that)
think about it?

Thank you all,

Fabio De Francesco

Re: Ada#

[Marc A. Criley]

"fabio de francesco" <fmdf@tiscali.it> wrote:
>
> I am not able to find informations about Ada#. When trying a search of
> Ada# with Google it returns Ada links.

Ada for .NET is called A#, not Ada#

>
> 1) Where can I get more informations about it?

http://www.usafa.af.mil/dfcs/bios/mcc_html/a_sharp.html

Marc A. Criley
McKae Technologies
www.mckae.com

Ada++

[Jerry]

Ada++. YABL? Please discuss.
http://www.adapplang.com/

Re: Ada++

[Nasser M. Abbasi]

On 5/28/2020 5:33 PM, Jerry wrote:
> Ada++. YABL? Please discuss.
> http://www.adapplang.com/
> 

I do not know if this is real or just a joke.

But I do not like Ada++. I actually prefer the Pascal type constructs
which Ada uses, which is explicit "Begin" "End" and "If" "Then" "Else",
"LOOP", etc...

I do not like brackets {}. I find the Pascal constructs
more algorithmic and makes the code and the logic more clear.

btw, I do not think changing Ada syntax to make it look like C and C++
is  the solution to making "Ada" become more popular. If so, then
they should change Ada to make it use Python syntax in that case :)

--Nasser

Re: Ada++

[Rick Newbie]

> btw, I do not think changing Ada syntax to make it look like C and C++
> is  the solution to making "Ada" become more popular. If so, then
> they should change Ada to make it use Python syntax in that case :)

As an Ada newbie I can tell you what is the most offturning thing about 
Ada:
1) The IDE does not measure up to Visual Studio
2) The GDB debugger
3) The fact that you need lots of various external libraries and you 
have to deal with the Linux hell of library versions and installation to 
accomplish basic things like a graphical user interface.

The curly braces are definitely not a problem

Re: Ada++

[raph.amiard]

Le vendredi 29 mai 2020 04:57:35 UTC+2, Rick Newbie a écrit :
> > btw, I do not think changing Ada syntax to make it look like C and C++
> > is  the solution to making "Ada" become more popular. If so, then
> > they should change Ada to make it use Python syntax in that case :)
> 
> As an Ada newbie I can tell you what is the most offturning thing about 
> Ada:
> 1) The IDE does not measure up to Visual Studio
> 2) The GDB debugger

What might be of interest to you is using VS Code for Ada programming. AdaCore already provides an extension, and VSCode's front-end on top of GDB is pretty neat :)

> 3) The fact that you need lots of various external libraries and you 
> have to deal with the Linux hell of library versions and installation to 
> accomplish basic things like a graphical user interface.
> 

The Ada library ecosystem is certainly lacking. Hopefully ALIRE will help with that situation in the long run.

Re: Ada++

[gautier_niouzes]

On Friday, May 29, 2020 at 4:57:35 AM UTC+2, Rick Newbie wrote:

> 1) The IDE does not measure up to Visual Studio

There is not such a thing like "the [Ada] IDE". Do you mean GNAT Studio?
There are multiple Ada compilers, IDEs, tools. So free, some not.
My 2c.
G.

Re: Ada++

[Rick Newbie]

On 5/29/2020 2:51 AM, gautier_niouzes@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, May 29, 2020 at 4:57:35 AM UTC+2, Rick Newbie wrote:
> 
>> 1) The IDE does not measure up to Visual Studio
> 
> There is not such a thing like "the [Ada] IDE". Do you mean GNAT Studio?
> There are multiple Ada compilers, IDEs, tools. So free, some not.
> My 2c.
> G.
> 
Yes of course I mean that. The other alternatives are even worse. Gnat 
Studio is OK but lacks a lot of editing features that VS provides, not 
to mention the tons of plugins on their marketplace

Re: Ada++

[gautier_niouzes]

On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 3:32:54 AM UTC+2, Rick Newbie wrote:

> Gnat Studio is OK but lacks a lot of editing features that VS provides,
There is clearly a potential there :-).
I mostly miss: code indent/dedent, a "comment block" that is smarter than inserting "--" at the begin of each line, multiline edit.
Fortunately there is "Edit with External Editor", and you can switch to LEA from time to time :-).

> not to mention the tons of plugins on their marketplace
It would be interesting to know what are your preferred plugins.

On the "plus" side with GNAT Studio, the search function is amazing.
The navigation (Find All References) and refactoring are very helpful.
The autocomplete menu takes into account code that you wrote but did not yet compile or even save, and guesses well what you are looking for.

Re: Ada++

[Rick Newbie]

> It would be interesting to know what are your preferred plugins.

I use Resharper C++ and Atomineer Documentation tool. Resharper really 
helps a lot

Re: Ada++

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On 30/05/2020 08:52, gautier_niouzes@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 3:32:54 AM UTC+2, Rick Newbie wrote:
> 
>> Gnat Studio is OK but lacks a lot of editing features that VS provides,
> There is clearly a potential there :-).

GPS is almost perfect to me.

The biggest problem apart from GDB, which is not owned by Ada Core, is 
with layouts. I would like layout undo/redo and an explicit save 
confirmation for changes. It is very annoying that all changes are 
permanent. Visual Studio is not different in that respect.

And I really want them to get rid of Python and use a decent Ada script 
or invest into HAC by Gautier de Montmollin.

And I want error messages sorted by severity. In GPS the least relevant 
ones like unused subroutine parameter always pop on the top.

> I mostly miss: code indent/dedent,

It is there, but well hidden: code -> selection -> move right/left.

[ The listed key shortcuts never work on any of my keyboards, but they 
can be assigned to something working ]

> a "comment block" that is smarter than inserting "--" at the begin of each line, multiline edit.
> Fortunately there is "Edit with External Editor", and you can switch to LEA from time to time :-).

I would like a more advanced feature: a part of code marked as debugging 
code, highlighted differently and most important kept in a separate file 
in a separate subdirectory. So that the production code base would be 
intact and the debugging code insertions/replacements would not be lost.

>> not to mention the tons of plugins on their marketplace
> It would be interesting to know what are your preferred plugins.
> 
> On the "plus" side with GNAT Studio, the search function is amazing.

Right. Visual Studio search is as "good" as Windows search. Same parents.

> The navigation (Find All References) and refactoring are very helpful.

Also going to the declaration/body is better (when the cross-reference 
is built) than Visual Studio's. It even works with generics.

> The autocomplete menu takes into account code that you wrote but did not yet compile or even save, and guesses well what you are looking for.

GPS is much faster. It requires far less clicks to do things than Visual 
Studio.

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: Ada++

[gautier_niouzes]

On Sunday, May 31, 2020 at 1:47:02 PM UTC+2, björn lundin wrote:
> Den 2020-05-30 kl. 08:52, skrev gautier_niouzes@hotmail.com:
> > On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 3:32:54 AM UTC+2, Rick Newbie wrote:
> > 
> >> Gnat Studio is OK but lacks a lot of editing features that VS provides,
> > There is clearly a potential there :-).
> 
> > I mostly miss: code indent/dedent, 
> I do that with pretty print. select something (or all with ctrl-a) and 
> hit Tab

If you are happy with the reformatting, fair enough.
But sometimes the result is... funny. You can try with GNAT's own files (a-textio.ads to begin with).

> a "comment block" that is smarter than inserting "--" at the begin of 
> each line,
> what do you mean? '--' is the only way to comment stuff in Ada,

Sure, but the "--" doesn't need to be at the very beginning of the line.
However the latest GNAT Studio does take indentation into account for commenting - that's good news!

> multiline edit.
> shift+alt and arrow up/down to get a multiline cursor, then start writing?

That's cool, but as you say...

> Ok, I like Scintilla's version better, and I guess that is what LEA has

Yep. Especially the multiline cursor is vertical if you want it to be so (like Alt + draw the mouse up/down), even through lines that would be too short otherwise. An example: if I do, with GPS, Shift + Alt + down arrow 5 times from the point marked with a '*' on this:

    case Composite_Data_Opcode (ND.IR.F) is
      when k_Array_Index_Element_Size_1*
      when k_Array_Index
      when k_Record_Field_Offset
      when k_Load_Block
      when k_Copy_Block
      when k_String_Literal_Assignment
    end case;

and type " => ", I get:

    case Composite_Data_Opcode (ND.IR.F) is
      when k_Array_Index_Element_Size_1 => 
      when k_Array_Index => 
      when k_Record_Fiel => d_Offset
      when k_Load_Block => 
      when k_Copy_Block => 
      when k_String_Lit => eral_Assignment
    end case;

Ouch...

Re: Ada++

[Luke A. Guest]

On 29/05/2020 03:57, Rick Newbie wrote:
> 
>> btw, I do not think changing Ada syntax to make it look like C and C++
>> is  the solution to making "Ada" become more popular. If so, then
>> they should change Ada to make it use Python syntax in that case :)
> 
> As an Ada newbie I can tell you what is the most offturning thing about
> Ada:
> 1) The IDE does not measure up to Visual Studio

Use Visual Studio then, there's a plugin.

> 2) The GDB debugger

As long it's integrated into the IDE, what's the issue?

> 3) The fact that you need lots of various external libraries and you
> have to deal with the Linux hell of library versions and installation to
> accomplish basic things like a graphical user interface.

You have to do this in any language.

> The curly braces are definitely not a problem
> 

Yeah they are, visually.

Re: Ada++

[Rick Newbie]

>> 2) The GDB debugger
> 
> As long it's integrated into the IDE, what's the issue?

Oh for instance that I was hardly able to break down into some 
structures and ended up with a raw format. Or that it often leaves you 
in a state where you don't really know if your program is running or not 
and what is going on.

Try debugging a massive multithreaded application with datastructures 
nested 10 or 20 levels deep in VS and then try the same with GDB and you 
know what I mean

Re: Ada++

[Björn Lundin]

Den 2020-05-29 kl. 04:57, skrev Rick Newbie:
> The curly braces are definitely not a problem

If you ever lost one in the middle, you know that they ARE a problem

end if/end case /end proc-name /end func.name /end package name /end 
loop etc
makes it much easier too see where somehing ends

switch (a)
{
    case 1 :
     {
       if (B==C)
       {
          while (true)
          {
            doSometing1();
            done = doSometing2();
            if done break;
          }
       }
    }
}

compared to

case a is
   when 1 =>
     if B = C then
       loop
          Do_Someting1;
          Done := Do_Someting2;
          exit when Done;
       end loop;
     end if;
   when others => null;
end case;


-- 
Björn

Re: Ada++

[Nasser M. Abbasi]

On 5/29/2020 6:09 AM, Björn Lundin wrote:
> Den 2020-05-29 kl. 04:57, skrev Rick Newbie:
>> The curly braces are definitely not a problem
> 
> If you ever lost one in the middle, you know that they ARE a problem
> 
> end if/end case /end proc-name /end func.name /end package name /end
> loop etc
> makes it much easier too see where somehing ends
> 
> switch (a)
> {
>      case 1 :
>       {
>         if (B==C)
>         {
>            while (true)
>            {
>              doSometing1();
>              done = doSometing2();
>              if done break;
>            }
>         }
>      }
> }
> 
> compared to
> 
> case a is
>     when 1 =>
>       if B = C then
>         loop
>            Do_Someting1;
>            Done := Do_Someting2;
>            exit when Done;
>         end loop;
>       end if;
>     when others => null;
> end case;
> 
> 


Exactly. I even liked Module 3, which forced keywords to be UPPER CASE,
which made it even more clear.  I also like when keyword are made bold
vs. everything so they are more clear.  Module 3 never took off. Here are
some code examples of it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modula-3

It is like Ada in a way, since both are rooted in Pascal syntax.

--Nasser


  

Re: Ada++

[Optikos]

On Friday, May 29, 2020 at 6:09:20 AM UTC-5, björn lundin wrote:
> Den 2020-05-29 kl. 04:57, skrev Rick Newbie:
> > The curly braces are definitely not a problem
> 
> If you ever lost one in the middle, you know that they ARE a problem
> 
> end if/end case /end proc-name /end func.name /end package name /end 
> loop etc
> makes it much easier too see where somehing ends
> 
> switch (a)
> {
>     case 1 :
>      {
>        if (B==C)
>        {
>           while (true)
>           {
>             doSometing1();
>             done = doSometing2();
>             if done break;
>           }
>        }
>     }
> }
> 
> compared to
> 
> case a is
>    when 1 =>
>      if B = C then
>        loop
>           Do_Someting1;
>           Done := Do_Someting2;
>           exit when Done;
>        end loop;
>      end if;
>    when others => null;
> end case;
> 
> 
> -- 
> Björn

Well, to be fair, C and its progeny have botched the original BCPL block-statement bracketing hints.

https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/988131.988138

As depicted in the article above, the BCPL feature applied to C would be the following, including compile-time enforcement to assure that the programmer-chosen bra tags match the programmer-chosen ket tags (where bra-ket is slang for open bracket and close bracket).

switch (a)
{sa
    case 1 :
     {c1
       if (B==C)
       {ifBC
          while (true)
          {wT
            doSometing1();
            done = doSometing2();
            if done break;
          }wT
       }ifBC
    }c1
}sa

As also mentioned in the above-linked article, PL/I had an analogous label-based mechanism for
LBL: block-statement here END LBL;
which, btw, Green-Ada partially borrowed due its limited amount of competitiveness with Red-PL/I.

Re: Ada++

[Björn Lundin]

Den 2020-05-29 kl. 23:57, skrev Optikos:
> Well, to be fair, C and its progeny have botched the original BCPL block-statement bracketing hints.

Meaing they do not have them?

Which is something I find a bad thing - or if you turn it around - I 
find having it a really good thing

I also noted some yeasr aga that end procedure-name/end function-name is 
not mandatory in Ada.
However gnat has a style option to warn if they are missing. That is a 
good thing too. other compilers may hae that - but I don't know.

I also find lone begin/end - as in pascal - just as hard to read.
And difficult to find if you happen to lose one - or pasting code into
another piece of code


-- 
Björn

Re: Ada++

[J-P. Rosen]

Le 31/05/2020 à 13:40, Björn Lundin a écrit :
> I also noted some yeasr aga that end procedure-name/end function-name is
> not mandatory in Ada.
> However gnat has a style option to warn if they are missing.
AdaControl too - with a possible exception for very short subprograms:
check style (no_closing_name, 5)

Require closing name except for subprograms up to 5 lines.

-- 
J-P. Rosen
Adalog
2 rue du Docteur Lombard, 92441 Issy-les-Moulineaux CEDEX
Tel: +33 1 45 29 21 52, Fax: +33 1 45 29 25 00
http://www.adalog.fr

Re: Ada++

[Rick Newbie]

On 5/29/2020 4:09 AM, Björn Lundin wrote:
> Den 2020-05-29 kl. 04:57, skrev Rick Newbie:
>> The curly braces are definitely not a problem

OK I formulated it the wrong way. What I meant was that having curly 
braces or not was not the problem. I should have said "Begin/End is not 
the problem"

Re: Ada++

[Optikos]

On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 5:33:15 PM UTC-5, Jerry wrote:
> Ada++. YABL? Please discuss.
> http://www.adapplang.com/

Please forgive me for being from another planet, but for what does the B of YABL stand?
Yet Another ________ Language
botched?
fatherless-son -ized?

Quite honestly, I think it is a YAAL:  yet another Algol language like so many others because its roadmap so far seems to focus on yet another syntax for the same old stuff that we all have been regurgitating slightly differently since Algol60.

In mild support of their efforts, I would suggest that the Ada++ team go digging deep into old SIGADA and Tri-Ada academic papers at dl.acm.org (which are nearly all available at no-charge until 30 June 2020 due to Covid-19).  There are multiple old critiques and could-have would-have should-have alternative viewpoints of alternate Ada language variants that were passed over, including some variants that would have achieved another Steelman requirement or two that Ada chose not to do and that the Air Force's reviews trimmed out of Ichbiah's original more-expansive vision for Ada.  The article below is the biggest inventory of alternate variants of Ada that were discarded as proposed Green morphed into mil-standard Ada post-Steelman (and quite honestly before that and after that in this exhaustive inventory).  Plus the Ada++ team should search for the great multitude of mentionings here on c.l.a of what a next-gen Ada would fix in rusty musty crusty older parts of Ada that are less admired nowadays than Ichbiah & HOLWG considered crucial back in the 1970s.  Hint:  more radical semantic maturations than mere syntactic doo-dads here & there.  For example, greater amounts of orthogonality such as constant members of records as required in Steelman 3-3F.  As another example, resurrection of the old a.app Ada-interpreter-within-the-Ada-compiler that was in DEC/Sun Ada compilers (which itself was Ada's rethink of PL/I's #PL/I interpreter within PL/I compiler), then drastically extending a.app's capabilities for multistage programming beyond OCaml-P4's.

https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/989791.989792

Re: Ada++

[Optikos]

On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 10:45:48 PM UTC-5, Optikos wrote:
> On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 5:33:15 PM UTC-5, Jerry wrote:
> > Ada++. YABL? Please discuss.
> > http://www.adapplang.com/
> 
> Please forgive me for being from another planet, but for what does the B of YABL stand?
> Yet Another ________ Language
> botched?
> fatherless-son -ized?
> 
> Quite honestly, I think it is a YAAL:  yet another Algol language like so many others because its roadmap
> so far seems to focus on yet another syntax for the same old stuff that we all have been regurgitating
> slightly differently since Algol60.
> 
> In mild support of their efforts, I would suggest that the Ada++ team go digging deep into old SIGADA
> and Tri-Ada academic papers at dl.acm.org (which are nearly all available at no-charge until 30 June
> 2020 due to Covid-19).  There are multiple old critiques and could-have would-have should-have
> alternative viewpoints of alternate Ada language variants that were passed over, including some variants
> that would have achieved another Steelman requirement or two that Ada chose not to do and that the Air
> Force's reviews trimmed out of Ichbiah's original more-expansive vision for Ada.  The article below is the
> biggest inventory of alternate variants of Ada that were discarded as proposed Green morphed into mil
> standard Ada post-Steelman (and quite honestly before that and after that in this exhaustive inventory). 
> Plus the Ada++ team should search for the great multitude of mentionings here on c.l.a of what a
> next-gen Ada would fix in rusty musty crusty older parts of Ada that are less admired nowadays than
> Ichbiah & HOLWG considered crucial back in the 1970s.  Hint:  more radical semantic maturations than
> mere syntactic doo-dads here & there.  For example, greater amounts of orthogonality such as constant
> members of records as required in Steelman 3-3F.  As another example, resurrection of the old a.app
> Ada-interpreter-within-the-Ada-compiler that was in DEC/Sun Ada compilers (which itself was Ada's
> rethink of PL/I's #PL/I interpreter within PL/I compiler), then drastically extending a.app's capabilities for
> multistage programming beyond OCaml-P4's.
> 
> https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/989791.989792

In addition to the prose summary linked above, here is a much more fine-grained list of when features of Green or Ada were added or taken away.  It is available without cost until 30 June 2020.  Ada++ could revisit a great multitude of these decisions, some of which were from design-by-committee HOLWG reviewers not from Ichbiah's mastermind vision/intent.

https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/24611.24614

Re: Ada++

[cantanima.perry]

On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 5:33:15 PM UTC-5, Jerry wrote:
> Ada++. YABL? Please discuss.
> http://www.adapplang.com/

Didn't AdaCore have an April Fool's Joke to this effect?

Re: Ada++

[Luke A. Guest]

On 29/05/2020 04:54, cantanima.perry@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 5:33:15 PM UTC-5, Jerry wrote:
>> Ada++. YABL? Please discuss.
>> http://www.adapplang.com/
> 
> Didn't AdaCore have an April Fool's Joke to this effect?
> 

Yeah, that's probably where this came from.

Re: Ada++

[Wesley Pan]

I remember coming across an article/post somewhere on this a while back. It's definitely not making the language better. If you want to make a better Ada, then focus on features that it is missing (e.g. features that would attract game developers!) and to fix things like string types. Focusing primarily on cosmetics is very counter productive, and the changes proposed only weaken one of Ada's strong points, readability => maintainability! 

I _really_ hope this effort doesn't take off...


On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 3:33:15 PM UTC-7, Jerry wrote:
> Ada++. YABL? Please discuss.
> http://www.adapplang.com/

Re: Ada++

[Nasser M. Abbasi]

On 5/28/2020 11:17 PM, Wesley Pan wrote:
> ...developers!) and to fix things like string types. 

Yes, for example Ada is one of few language still does
not have multine raw string support. (may be also Fortran)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_document

Check also

https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Here_document

"A   here document   (or "heredoc")   is a way of specifying a
text block, preserving the line breaks, indentation and other
whitespace within the text."

See the Ada answer above

"Ada has neither heredocs nor multiline strings. A
workaround is to use containers of strings:"

Python, Perl, ruby, even C++11 added multine raw string
and more languages.

--Nasser

Re: Ada++

[J-P. Rosen]

Le 29/05/2020 à 06:38, Nasser M. Abbasi a écrit :
> "Ada has neither heredocs nor multiline strings. A
> workaround is to use containers of strings:"

Please provide a use case showing how these features are
necessary/important.

In the rare cases where I needed to put a several-lines message into a
single string, I just marked the place of line break with a LF character
(in Ada, you could even use an NUL character for that!), and issued a
New_Line when I encountered it. Anyway, that's what other languages do
implicitely.

If you don't mind being (slightly) OS dependent, printing the LF will
naturally accompish what you want.

-- 
J-P. Rosen
Adalog
2 rue du Docteur Lombard, 92441 Issy-les-Moulineaux CEDEX
Tel: +33 1 45 29 21 52, Fax: +33 1 45 29 25 00
http://www.adalog.fr

Re: Ada++

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On 29/05/2020 08:06, J-P. Rosen wrote:
> Le 29/05/2020 à 06:38, Nasser M. Abbasi a écrit :
>> "Ada has neither heredocs nor multiline strings. A
>> workaround is to use containers of strings:"
> 
> Please provide a use case showing how these features are
> necessary/important.

They are totally useless. [Embedding was never a good idea, embedded 
SQL, embedded machine code etc.]

What is indeed needed is static expressions allowing creation of static 
objects in order to reduce program startup time, e.g. a text buffer 
containing pre-rendered at compile time text or a static map of texts or 
an embedded picture etc. Presently all this requires a tool that would 
generate Ada code with static arrays of Storage_Element and lots of "for 
X'Address use Y."

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: Ada++

[J-P. Rosen]

Le 29/05/2020 à 08:56, Dmitry A. Kazakov a écrit :
> What is indeed needed is static expressions allowing creation of static
> objects in order to reduce program startup time, e.g. a text buffer
> containing pre-rendered at compile time text or a static map of texts or
> an embedded picture etc. Presently all this requires a tool that would
> generate Ada code with static arrays of Storage_Element and lots of "for
> X'Address use Y."

I had that need for a Tash program, where I wanted the TCL program to be
embedded as strings in the Ada code. I wrote a small utility to keep the
Tcl separated, and include it in the Ada code automatically. It's a bit
more sophisticated than that, has some options, etc. All in all, it's a
single Ada procedure of 290 lines (comments included). Really no big
deal...

For those who may be interested:
https://www.adalog.fr/en/components.html#Tcl2ada

-- 
J-P. Rosen
Adalog
2 rue du Docteur Lombard, 92441 Issy-les-Moulineaux CEDEX
Tel: +33 1 45 29 21 52, Fax: +33 1 45 29 25 00
http://www.adalog.fr

Re: Ada++

[fabien.chouteau]

On Friday, May 29, 2020 at 8:06:34 AM UTC+2, J-P. Rosen wrote:
> Please provide a use case showing how these features are
> necessary/important.

https://github.com/alire-project/alire/blob/dfa1e1e8029dee2959742b73ed8a0fc96e22c8de/src/alr/alr-commands-index.adb#L171 

Re: Ada++

[raph.amiard]

Le vendredi 29 mai 2020 11:23:22 UTC+2, fabien....@gmail.com a écrit :
> On Friday, May 29, 2020 at 8:06:34 AM UTC+2, J-P. Rosen wrote:
> > Please provide a use case showing how these features are
> > necessary/important.
> 
> https://github.com/alire-project/alire/blob/dfa1e1e8029dee2959742b73ed8a0fc96e22c8de/src/alr/alr-commands-index.adb#L171

Or in GNAT: https://github.com/aosm/libstdcxx_SUPanWheat/blob/02812415a478d43bcc37a17bb779fcab146fbe4c/libstdcxx/gcc/ada/snames.adb#L59

Or in Libadalang:

https://github.com/AdaCore/libadalang/blob/1cf553d5fc37317c670888f0893bc25560c85b7b/ada/extensions/src/libadalang-env_hooks.adb#L47

Those are just two examples on the top of my mind. Every time you want to embed a multi line string in an Ada app you need to go through this frankly annoying gymnastics.

This is also annoying for compiler writers. In Libadalang we need to recognize those as special cases because they can create comb trees of unbounded depth.

> They are totally useless. [Embedding was never a good idea, embedded
SQL, embedded machine code etc.]

Demonstrably not. Anyway those kind of blanket statements tends to be false in general, I hope you can see that there are many legitimate use cases for this, and that the fact that you did not need it doesn't mean it's useless.

Re: Ada++

[Jeffrey R. Carter]

On 5/29/20 11:43 AM, raph.amiard@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> Every time you want to embed a multi line string in an Ada app you need to go through this frankly annoying gymnastics.

A S/W engineer, when encountering "frankly annoying gymnastics" a 2nd time, 
creates an abstraction to hide the "frankly annoying gymnastics", and so never 
has to go through the "frankly annoying gymnastics" ever again.

-- 
Jeff Carter
"Why don't you bore a hole in yourself and let the sap run out?"
Horse Feathers
49

Re: Ada++

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On 29/05/2020 12:27, Jeffrey R. Carter wrote:
> On 5/29/20 11:43 AM, raph.amiard@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> Every time you want to embed a multi line string in an Ada app you 
>> need to go through this frankly annoying gymnastics.
> 
> A S/W engineer, when encountering "frankly annoying gymnastics" a 2nd 
> time, creates an abstraction to hide the "frankly annoying gymnastics", 
> and so never has to go through the "frankly annoying gymnastics" ever 
> again.

Which BTW was, at least partially, done by AdaCore as the comment 
preceding the string constant in the cited source code reads:

"The content of the following string literal has been generated running 
GNAT with flag -gnatS, and then post-processed by hand."

How, e.g. images are supposed to be literally embedded in the code is 
beyond me. So for my projects I wrote a few lines Ada code generator 
that creates a nice Ada package per image. No need to read its content ever.

Even embedding text content is a non-starter beyond a few toy cases, 
because of formatting, markup, Unicode, fonts and thousands other 
issues. Literal text is pretty much non-existent thing. Typewriter times 
are gone.

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: Ada++

[J-P. Rosen]

Le 29/05/2020 à 11:43, raph.amiard@gmail.com a écrit :
> Or in Libadalang:
> 
> https://github.com/AdaCore/libadalang/blob/1cf553d5fc37317c670888f0893bc25560c85b7b/ada/extensions/src/libadalang-env_hooks.adb#L47

This is a surprising example in its very principle. Is the specification
of Standard hard-coded in Libadalang? This would mean that the
definition of Integer et.alt. is not the one of the compiler you are
using, but the one of Libadalang. Puzzled...
-- 
J-P. Rosen
Adalog
2 rue du Docteur Lombard, 92441 Issy-les-Moulineaux CEDEX
Tel: +33 1 45 29 21 52, Fax: +33 1 45 29 25 00
http://www.adalog.fr

Re: Ada++

[Nasser M. Abbasi]

On 5/29/2020 1:06 AM, J-P. Rosen wrote:
> Le 29/05/2020 à 06:38, Nasser M. Abbasi a écrit :
>> "Ada has neither heredocs nor multiline strings. A
>> workaround is to use containers of strings:"
> 


> Please provide a use case showing how these features are
> necessary/important.
> 
I wanted sometime ago to use Ada to generate Latex file on the
fly.

You might ask, why not use Latex editor? Because this is different.

When writing a program to generate the Latex file, then
one can do some computation in the program on the fly, and emit
the resulting string into the Latex file as it is being composed.

This way each time the program is run, a new Latex file is
generated, with possible new content each time.

This can be much faster/better than having to edit a static
Latex file in the Latex editor and update the document manually each
time new results are obtained for example, by manually copying
some computation result from another program into the Latex document.

I do this all the time for example in Mathematica.

Each time I update something in the data, I run the program, which
generate brand new Latex file, then compile this Latex file
to get the new PDF report. Much much faster than editing Latex file
each time something new changed.

But to do this, one has to be able to write, inside the Ada editor,
as if one is using a plain Latex editor, and not worry about
having to close strings every 80 characters or so and start new line
and having to append each string one by one. It is much
better to write large amount of text at once, and having
its structure preserved as is.

This is what multi-line raw strings allow one to do.

It is like writing a program to generate new program.

It is not possible to do this in Ada. Well, it is,  but it will
be very very cumbersome.

Here are some very basic examples using Ruby, Perl and C++

https://www.12000.org/my_notes/here_document/index.htm

To see an example using Mathematica, used to generate a web page,
here is an example

https://mathematica.stackexchange.com/questions/152663/making-a-website-with-mathematica

it is the second answer there.


> In the rare cases where I needed to put a several-lines message into a
> single string, I just marked the place of line break with a LF character
> (in Ada, you could even use an NUL character for that!), and issued a
> New_Line when I encountered it. Anyway, that's what other languages do
> implicitely.
> 
> If you don't mind being (slightly) OS dependent, printing the LF will
> naturally accompish what you want.
> 

--Nasser

Re: Ada++

[gautier_niouzes]

> It is not possible to do this in Ada. Well, it is,  but it will
> be very very cumbersome.
> 
> Here are some very basic examples using Ruby, Perl and C++
> 
> https://www.12000.org/my_notes/here_document/index.htm

> It is not possible to do this in Ada. Well, it is,  but it will
> be very very cumbersome.

No, it's piece of cake! Just use the right editor :-) .

> Here are some very basic examples using Ruby, Perl and C++
> 
> https://www.12000.org/my_notes/here_document/index.htm

Done with LEA in a few mouse clicks and key strokes (lines truncated here because of the max columns of newsgroups).

with HAC_Pack;  use HAC_Pack;

procedure Easy is
begin
  Put_Line("\documentclass[12pt,titlepage]{article}                _");
  Put_Line("\begin{document}                                       _");
  Put_Line("\title{%(title)s}                                      _");
  Put_Line("\date{%(date)s}                                        _");
  Put_Line("                                                       _");
  Put_Line("The following in known equation $\sin^2(x)+\cos^2(x)=1$_");
  Put_Line("is 100%(p)s correct. This was written on %(date)s and t_");
  Put_Line("string ""I am a string"" and this is \n which is left a_");
  Put_Line("                                                       _");
  Put_Line("\end{document}                                         _");
end;

Re: Ada++

[Nasser M. Abbasi]

On 6/13/2020 5:03 AM, gautier_niouzes@hotmail.com wrote:
>> It is not possible to do this in Ada. Well, it is,  but it will
>> be very very cumbersome.
>>
>> Here are some very basic examples using Ruby, Perl and C++
>>
>> https://www.12000.org/my_notes/here_document/index.htm
> 
>> It is not possible to do this in Ada. Well, it is,  but it will
>> be very very cumbersome.
> 
> No, it's piece of cake! Just use the right editor :-) .
> 
>> Here are some very basic examples using Ruby, Perl and C++
>>
>> https://www.12000.org/my_notes/here_document/index.htm
> 
> Done with LEA in a few mouse clicks and key strokes (lines truncated here because of the max columns of newsgroups).
> 
> with HAC_Pack;  use HAC_Pack;
> 
> procedure Easy is
> begin
>    Put_Line("\documentclass[12pt,titlepage]{article}                _");
>    Put_Line("\begin{document}                                       _");
>    Put_Line("\title{%(title)s}                                      _");
>    Put_Line("\date{%(date)s}                                        _");
>    Put_Line("                                                       _");
>    Put_Line("The following in known equation $\sin^2(x)+\cos^2(x)=1$_");
>    Put_Line("is 100%(p)s correct. This was written on %(date)s and t_");
>    Put_Line("string ""I am a string"" and this is \n which is left a_");
>    Put_Line("                                                       _");
>    Put_Line("\end{document}                                         _");
> end;
> 

Thanks, But that is my point.

I do not want to do that, even if it is done by an editor.

I'd rather just write, for example, in Python:

s =r"""
\documentclass[12pt,titlepage]{article}
\begin{document}
\title{%(title)s}
\date{%(date)s}
  
The following in known equation $\sin^2(x)+\cos^2(x)=1$ and this
is 100%(p)s correct. This was written on %(date)s and this is a
string "I am a string" and this is \n which is left as is.
  
\end{document}
"""

Which I can do in any editor, even using notepad.exe on windows :)

And if I have to edit it again (add/remove stuff), which happens
all the time, much easier to edit the raw string, than your version.

--Nasser

Re: Ada++

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On 13/06/2020 11:40, Nasser M. Abbasi wrote:

> You might ask, why not use Latex editor?

No at all. With all due respect to Knuth, TeX is a bad language.

> But to do this, one has to be able to write, inside the Ada editor,

No. See above. The answer to the first question implies the answer to 
the second one. Do a higher level abstraction to your LaTeX elements in 
the form of Ada subprograms. Call these subprograms to "program" the 
document.

P.S. I had same issue with HTML, which is also an incredibly bad 
language. I used Ada generating calls instead of inserting HTML tags 
using Ada literals.

P.P.S. The additional advantage of this approach is that you could 
set/change styles on top of it without usual ugly ways (macros in TeX, 
styles in HTTP).

P.P.P.S. I find the idea of markup language inherently flawed. Neither 
of hundreds if not thousands existing markup languages offers 
readability or efficiency. They might be good for small hacks like texts 
of GUI labels, but on a larger scale they do not work without a massive 
tool chain to deal with the mess.

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: Ada++

[J-P. Rosen]

Le 13/06/2020 à 11:40, Nasser M. Abbasi a écrit :
> On 5/29/2020 1:06 AM, J-P. Rosen wrote:
>> Le 29/05/2020 à 06:38, Nasser M. Abbasi a écrit :
>>> "Ada has neither heredocs nor multiline strings. A
>>> workaround is to use containers of strings:"
>>
> 
> 
>> Please provide a use case showing how these features are
>> necessary/important.
>>
> I wanted sometime ago to use Ada to generate Latex file on the
> fly.
> [...]
I think it is a bad idea to have the template file in the code. Every
time you change a coma in your text, you'll need to recompile your program.

A much better solution is to use AWS template parser. You keep the
template separate from your program, and you can parameterize the
content at will. By changing the template, you can even move from Latex
to whatever-is-in-fashion-today without changing your program.

-- 
J-P. Rosen
Adalog
2 rue du Docteur Lombard, 92441 Issy-les-Moulineaux CEDEX
Tel: +33 1 45 29 21 52, Fax: +33 1 45 29 25 00
http://www.adalog.fr

Re: Ada++

[ric.wai88]

Guys, this was an April Fools Day joke.

Re: Ada++

[Stéphane Rivière]

Le 30/05/2020 à 17:25, ric.wai88@gmail.com a écrit :
> Guys, this was an April Fools Day joke.

See commits on github :)


Commits on Apr 3, 2020

Add note about lack of builds
@AdaPlusPlus
AdaPlusPlus committed on 3 Apr

Update README.md
@AdaPlusPlus
AdaPlusPlus committed on 3 Apr

Rename README to README.md
@AdaPlusPlus
AdaPlusPlus committed on 3 Apr

Update README
@AdaPlusPlus
AdaPlusPlus committed on 3 Apr

Initial commit for Ada++
@AdaPlusPlus
AdaPlusPlus committed on 3 Apr


-- 
Be Seeing You
Number Six

Re: Ada++

[Optikos]

On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 10:25:56 AM UTC-5, ric....@gmail.com wrote:
> Guys, this was an April Fools Day joke.

… perhaps by the same Ada++ name elsewhere, but this Ada++ seems to not be that one at all.

In addition to Stéphane Rivière's April 3rd (not April 1st, as one might expect for an April Fool's joke) dates of GitHub activity, the private-to-GoDaddy WHOIS information for adapplang dot com shows that the domain was registered on 21 January 2020 (not 31 March or 01 April, as one might expect for an April Fool's joke).

https://www.whois.com/whois/adapplang.com

Conversely, Ada++'s roadmap below seems blandly modest & mundane, referring only to work in-queue elsewhere:  so far nothing that AdaCore itself wouldn't eventually do for GNAT.  Therefore as an April Fool's joke, it isn't outlandish at all.  Hence, where is the April-Fools humor in that?

http://www.AdappLang.com/docs.html

Re: Ada++

[ric.wai88]

The original author posted it to Ada Comment on April 1st. Yes it is a fun side-project for him I'm sure, but it is not a serious thing (thankfully).

Re: Ada++

[Randy Brukardt]

<ric.wai88@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:df94695b-ec41-4bef-b9d8-7b715b1f6f10@googlegroups.com...
> The original author posted it to Ada Comment on April 1st. Yes it is a fun 
> side-project for him I'm sure, but it is not a serious thing (thankfully).

Which unfortunately got delay several days because of me not being in the 
office to approve it, thus clobbering the joke.

As far as starting it early, I wrote AI12-0841-1 right after the previous 
year's April Fools day. And I spent time on it and the associated "news" 
post for a week before posting it. (And I failed to get Wordpress to post it 
on April 1st. Perhaps there is a pattern here. ;-) Doing these things right 
takes a decent investment of time.

                          Randy.