* Re: GWindows and David Botton @ 2004-09-28 6:39 Robert C. Leif 2004-09-28 6:56 ` tmoran 0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread From: Robert C. Leif @ 2004-09-28 6:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: comp.lang.ada Although CLAW is the only package that is able to hide most of Windows' complexity and ugliness, continued development of it for the Windows GUI is a poor long-term bet. One of the major advantages of CLAW is that it is a thick binding. Since Scalable Vector Graphics (SVG) XML Graphics for the Web (http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/) and XForms (http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/) provide the infrastructure for a GUI, why not interface to them and have a truly portable standard GUI. The XML documents (code) required to be generated should be of about the same complexity as a Windows Resource file. There is the extra benefit that this product should interface with the next version of OpenOffice (http://www.openoffice.org/). The OpenOffice schema are much more readable that those for Microsoft Office and appear to be based on W3C standards, such as SVG and XSL:fo. OpenOffice "Mission Statement" "To create, as a community, the leading international office suite that will run on all major platforms and provide access to all functionality and data through open-component based APIs and an XML-based file format." Bob Leif ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: 27 Sep 2004 14:23:13 -0700 From: mcneills@landcareresearch.co.nz (Stephen McNeill) Subject: Re: GWindows and David Botton To: comp.lang.ada@ada-france.org Message-ID: <116a1020.0409271323.1922da15@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Georg Bauhaus <sb463ba@l1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de> wrote in message news:<cj916q$8as$1@a1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de>... > I hope that Randy Brukardt's and Tom Moran's respective offers (making > the rest of CLAW GMGPLed, which, if I understand correctly, will include > the media packages) are not deliberately ignored? > > Or is there some technical profit in not co-ordinating efforts? > I guess Ada vendors have customer who do already use CLAW. Will > they be attracted to another great effort likely to be very similar > to CLAW, and abandon a supported product (CLAW) that already meets > their needs? > What kind of support can they expect? > > Conversly, imagine that for a Windows bindings project you had > - RR Software's experience in building Windows bindings > - CLAW customers' interest in the project if based on CLAW > - and possibly other vendors' (and customers') interest in an > alternative high level Ada binding. > > > -- Georg Georg, that is a fair point. That is one of the reasons why (in a message a few weeks ago I think) I asked whether it was important to continue working with GWindows, or alternatively give it a decent burial. If the consensus is to stand in behind CLAW, then provided there is some general assurance that it is likely to survive, with a basic cost that is generally acceptable to a reasonable range of users, then I shall stand in line to offer help. Stephen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-28 6:39 GWindows and David Botton Robert C. Leif @ 2004-09-28 6:56 ` tmoran 0 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: tmoran @ 2004-09-28 6:56 UTC (permalink / raw) > Although CLAW is the only package that is able to hide most of >Windows' complexity and ugliness, continued development of it for the >Windows GUI is a poor long-term bet. One of the major advantages of CLAW is >that it is a thick binding. Since Scalable Vector Graphics (SVG) XML >Graphics for the Web (http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/) and XForms >(http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/) provide the infrastructure for a GUI, why Claw has a lot besides a Windows GUI. Registry, clipboard, sockets, event handling, and real-time sound and graphics, for instance, come to mind. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
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* Re: GWindows and David Botton [not found] <uoejghjq3.fsf@acm.org> @ 2004-10-06 4:19 ` Alexander E. Kopilovich 2004-10-06 4:39 ` David Botton 0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread From: Alexander E. Kopilovich @ 2004-10-06 4:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: comp.lang.ada Stephen Leake wrote: > There was a distinct feeling that the Ada community in general would > benefit from going forward with only _one_ thick Windows binding, > because that would enhance the level of support for that binding (both > in terms of user experience and developers fixing problems and adding > features). Don't you think that essentially the same feeling tells that it must be better for society if it has exactly one political party, and not two or three? And that it is wrong for essentially the same reasons. You have to choose between that determinism and popularity. If you choose determinism that stop lamenting about being unpopular. Such determinism may be very effective in some aspects, but it can be popular for short time only (and this time was over long ago for Ada), because broad community faces too broad spectre of problems and circumstances. But if we descend from those general speculations to more specific essentials, we can notice, that while CLAW is an example of thick Ada binding in its purpose, the proclaimed purpose of GWindows/GNAVI is essentially different. The latter seems to strive to be not just another classical Ada binding, but a Delphi-like thing (if you never tried Delphi then you probably can't imagine what it means) - a tool with which your program binds to rich objects, and that binding is not just to some API, but explicitly involves ontology of those objects... so, it may be seen as a binding at ontological level (at least partially). I can't say that I believe that GWindows/GNAVI have bright perspective - I have some doubts about it (and some of them relate to Ada language itself), but the purpose is surely very attractive (whether it is attainable - this is another matter). And I'm sure that even if GWindows/GNAVI succeed and reach the level of Delphi 2/3 there still always will be a good place for some classical Ada binding for Win32 - such as CLAW. Alexander Kopilovich aek@vib.usr.pu.ru Saint-Petersburg Russia ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-06 4:19 ` Alexander E. Kopilovich @ 2004-10-06 4:39 ` David Botton 0 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: David Botton @ 2004-10-06 4:39 UTC (permalink / raw) GNATCOM + GWindows is nearly complete vs. Delphi/ C++ Builder 2/3 VCL The part left is the environment, not the framework per se. So I think it is very attainable and if things went different job wise a year and a half ago it would already be here. David Botton On 2004-10-06 00:19:52 -0400, "Alexander E. Kopilovich" <aek@VB1162.spb.edu> said: > > I can't say that I believe that GWindows/GNAVI have bright perspective - > I have some doubts about it (and some of them relate to Ada language itself), > but the purpose is surely very attractive (whether it is attainable - this > is another matter). And I'm sure that even if GWindows/GNAVI succeed and > reach the level of Delphi 2/3 there still always will be a good place for > some classical Ada binding for Win32 - such as CLAW. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* GWindows and David Botton @ 2004-09-23 1:44 Fionn mac Cuimhaill 2004-09-23 2:51 ` stephane richard 2004-09-24 0:35 ` Stephen Leake 0 siblings, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Fionn mac Cuimhaill @ 2004-09-23 1:44 UTC (permalink / raw) Has anyone been able to contact David Botton? I need to make a number of additions to GWindows, which I use at work. He seems to have little or no time for it at present, and I have both the time and the necessity to make improvements. I would prefer not to produce a different fork of GWindows without asking him about his opinions, as I feel that it would be a basic courtesy to get his blessings on the project, but I have received no answer to the E-mail that I sent to him, and I can't tell if he just has no time for even e-mail, or if an overzealous spam filter has blocked communication with him. I need to make extensive additions to printing support, which is at present a fairly thin binding to the Windows printing API. I also need to make additions to the support for databases. The Gwindows/GNATCOM mailing list seems to be defunct, and I would also like to find a way to organize a replacement for it. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-23 1:44 Fionn mac Cuimhaill @ 2004-09-23 2:51 ` stephane richard 2004-09-24 1:08 ` Stephen Leake 2004-09-24 0:35 ` Stephen Leake 1 sibling, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread From: stephane richard @ 2004-09-23 2:51 UTC (permalink / raw) "Fionn mac Cuimhaill" <invisible@hiding.from.spam> wrote in message news:pe94l0ln3ku677u8bu9f3r9fvm2ab63v5m@4ax.com... > Has anyone been able to contact David Botton? I need to make a number > of additions to GWindows, which I use at work. He seems to have little > or no time for it at present, and I have both the time and the > necessity to make improvements. I would prefer not to produce a > different fork of GWindows without asking him about his opinions, as I > feel that it would be a basic courtesy to get his blessings on the > project, but I have received no answer to the E-mail that I sent to > him, and I can't tell if he just has no time for even e-mail, or if an > overzealous spam filter has blocked communication with him. > > I need to make extensive additions to printing support, which is at > present a fairly thin binding to the Windows printing API. > > I also need to make additions to the support for databases. > > The Gwindows/GNATCOM mailing list seems to be defunct, and I would > also like to find a way to organize a replacement for it. Hi Fionn, I think the best thing to do for now is like konad did (in another thread on comp.lang.ada) and they host their extension to GWindows themselves at least until David eventually does reply. If you can't host it yourself, I'd be happy to host your modifications for you on my website (http://www.adaworld.com) is my website and I have plenty of space.. I'm sure many developers could and would benefit from your modifications so I would gladly accept to host them for you. I'm also trying to get in touch with David myself for another GWindows related issue (the one with Konad in which a possible merger of their modification into the official GWindows release if possible and all hosting on Ada World).. Perhaps a merger of all three could be possible? Stephane Richard "Ada World" webmaster http://www.adaworld.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-23 2:51 ` stephane richard @ 2004-09-24 1:08 ` Stephen Leake 2004-09-24 1:14 ` stephane richard 2004-09-24 16:26 ` Matthew Heaney 0 siblings, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2004-09-24 1:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: comp.lang.ada "stephane richard" <stephane.richard@verizon.net> writes: > I think the best thing to do for now is like konad did (in another thread on > comp.lang.ada) and they host their extension to GWindows themselves at least > until David eventually does reply. If you can't host it yourself, I'd be > happy to host your modifications for you on my website > (http://www.adaworld.com) is my website and I have plenty of space.. With all due respect, Stephane, I would suggest hosting a new Gwindows project on Sourceforge, instead. It's entirely possible you will suffer the same fate as David Botton (I hope he's moved on to something he's happy with). Sourceforge is supported by a large organization with what appears to be a solid business plan, so it's a better choice for a joint project that we want to be around for a while. I used to recommend Savannah, supported by the Gnu Project; Grace was there. But they took a _long_ time to recover from a hacker attack; they clearly devote their main effort to the Gnu Project itself, and don't really have the resources for us casual users. -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-24 1:08 ` Stephen Leake @ 2004-09-24 1:14 ` stephane richard 2004-09-24 16:26 ` Matthew Heaney 1 sibling, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: stephane richard @ 2004-09-24 1:14 UTC (permalink / raw) I understand Stephen, and for that statement alone, I'd back your choice of hosting at sourceforge. :-) Of course I don't plan on suffering the same faith ;-). you don't plan for that. :-) "Stephen Leake" <stephen_leake@acm.org> wrote in message news:mailman.84.1095988127.390.comp.lang.ada@ada-france.org... > "stephane richard" <stephane.richard@verizon.net> writes: > >> I think the best thing to do for now is like konad did (in another thread >> on >> comp.lang.ada) and they host their extension to GWindows themselves at >> least >> until David eventually does reply. If you can't host it yourself, I'd be >> happy to host your modifications for you on my website >> (http://www.adaworld.com) is my website and I have plenty of space.. > > With all due respect, Stephane, I would suggest hosting a new Gwindows > project on Sourceforge, instead. It's entirely possible you will > suffer the same fate as David Botton (I hope he's moved on to > something he's happy with). Sourceforge is supported by a large > organization with what appears to be a solid business plan, so it's a > better choice for a joint project that we want to be around for a > while. > > I used to recommend Savannah, supported by the Gnu Project; Grace was > there. But they took a _long_ time to recover from a hacker attack; > they clearly devote their main effort to the Gnu Project itself, and > don't really have the resources for us casual users. > > -- > -- Stephe > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-24 1:08 ` Stephen Leake 2004-09-24 1:14 ` stephane richard @ 2004-09-24 16:26 ` Matthew Heaney 2004-09-25 12:19 ` Stephen Leake 2004-09-26 13:22 ` Craig Carey 1 sibling, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Matthew Heaney @ 2004-09-24 16:26 UTC (permalink / raw) You could also try tigris.org. That's where Charles and the AI-302 reference implemention are hosted. http://charles.tigris.org/ "Stephen Leake" <stephen_leake@acm.org> wrote in message news:mailman.84.1095988127.390.comp.lang.ada@ada-france.org... > "stephane richard" <stephane.richard@verizon.net> writes: > > > I think the best thing to do for now is like konad did (in another thread on > > comp.lang.ada) and they host their extension to GWindows themselves at least > > until David eventually does reply. If you can't host it yourself, I'd be > > happy to host your modifications for you on my website > > (http://www.adaworld.com) is my website and I have plenty of space.. > > With all due respect, Stephane, I would suggest hosting a new Gwindows > project on Sourceforge, instead. It's entirely possible you will > suffer the same fate as David Botton (I hope he's moved on to > something he's happy with). Sourceforge is supported by a large > organization with what appears to be a solid business plan, so it's a > better choice for a joint project that we want to be around for a > while. > > I used to recommend Savannah, supported by the Gnu Project; Grace was > there. But they took a _long_ time to recover from a hacker attack; > they clearly devote their main effort to the Gnu Project itself, and > don't really have the resources for us casual users. > > -- > -- Stephe > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-24 16:26 ` Matthew Heaney @ 2004-09-25 12:19 ` Stephen Leake 2004-09-26 13:22 ` Craig Carey 1 sibling, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2004-09-25 12:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: comp.lang.ada "Matthew Heaney" <mheaney@on2.com> writes: > You could also try tigris.org. That's where Charles and the AI-302 > reference implemention are hosted. > > http://charles.tigris.org/ Sigh. Now we have to make a decision :). Going with Sourceforge was easy when I thought it was the only option. Matthew, can you give us some insight into Tigris? Do you have any complaints or praise? On a brief look thru the docs, it has ssh CVS access, BugZilla issue tracking, and web page hosting. All good stuff, and similar to SourceForge. Do they place limits on size? Hmm. I just found their "Tigris mission statement"; they want projects that are related to software engineering issues. Any idea whether a Windows binding fits that? Hmm. Looking thru the list of projects, a Windows binding seems ok. -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-24 16:26 ` Matthew Heaney 2004-09-25 12:19 ` Stephen Leake @ 2004-09-26 13:22 ` Craig Carey 1 sibling, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Craig Carey @ 2004-09-26 13:22 UTC (permalink / raw) On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 12:26:21 -0400, "Matthew Heaney" <mheaney@on2.com> wrote: >You could also try tigris.org. That's where Charles and the AI-302 >reference implemention are hosted. > >http://charles.tigris.org/ > I suggest that Ada project owners avoid Tigris.org, since it seems to be under-manned, and have a site search feature that can't find Ada 95 projects. There are 2 Ada projects hosted at tigris.org: (1) http://charles.tigris.org/ : "Summary" : "Charles is a container and algorithms library for Ada." (2) http://tope.tigris.org/ : "Summary" : "Ada 95 Symbolic Algebra quantifier eliminator & logic & geometry Tigris can'5 find both for these 4 searches done at the main "projects" tab webpage: (i) searching for "ada": with and without, the double quotes; (2) and searching using 'contains Summary' mode and using 'contains Name'. My fast Unbounded Strings package is faster than the Charles code in my tests. http://tope.tigris.org/source/browse/tope/src/Striunli/ AdaCore replied ot a bug report which would be interpreted as saying that low level string assignment code was rewritten. > > >"Stephen Leake" wrote in message: ... >> > (http://www.adaworld.com) is my website and I have plenty of space.. ... Any CVS/ (no(?)) >> I used to recommend Savannah, supported by the Gnu Project; Grace was >> there. But they took a _long_ time to recover from a hacker attack; ... The statement is true. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-23 1:44 Fionn mac Cuimhaill 2004-09-23 2:51 ` stephane richard @ 2004-09-24 0:35 ` Stephen Leake 2004-09-24 3:38 ` Randy Brukardt ` (3 more replies) 1 sibling, 4 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2004-09-24 0:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: comp.lang.ada Fionn mac Cuimhaill <invisible@hiding.from.spam> writes: > <snip GWindows stuff> > > The Gwindows/GNATCOM mailing list seems to be defunct, and I would > also like to find a way to organize a replacement for it. I suggest you use this newsgroup (comp.lang.ada), until it becomes clear that you need another forum. I, for one, would like to hear if Gwindows becomes a better supported and more widely used project. I'm considering giving up on GtkAda for Windows development, and resurrecting Windex (long story, for another thread :). But I would consider joining an open Gwindows project, instead. I always thought Windex and Gwindows should be merged. -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-24 0:35 ` Stephen Leake @ 2004-09-24 3:38 ` Randy Brukardt 2004-09-24 5:41 ` Martin Dowie ` (2 more replies) 2004-09-24 5:45 ` Fionn mac Cuimhaill ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 3 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Randy Brukardt @ 2004-09-24 3:38 UTC (permalink / raw) "Stephen Leake" <stephen_leake@acm.org> wrote in message news:mailman.83.1095986128.390.comp.lang.ada@ada-france.org... ... > I'm considering giving up on GtkAda for Windows development, and > resurrecting Windex (long story, for another thread :). But I would > consider joining an open Gwindows project, instead. I always thought > Windex and Gwindows should be merged. Another alternative (if you're starting over) is to work from the Introductory version of Claw, which is also GMGPL. (I've got to find the time to update the distribution to reflect that.) It's of course still supported and actively worked on (not as much as I'd like, though). And Claw works with a number of Ada compilers; you're not tied to GNAT when you use it. If there was sufficient demand, I could probably be talked into making the rest of the Claw Binding (not the GUI Builder -- gotta keep something back!) GMGPL. Our intent always was that the binding would be available to the public once it stabilized enough, and I think we've reached that point. But I'd like to see some interest (particularly in extending it) before going through the hastle. Randy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-24 3:38 ` Randy Brukardt @ 2004-09-24 5:41 ` Martin Dowie 2004-09-24 10:37 ` stephane richard 2004-09-24 17:00 ` Cesar Rabak 2 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Martin Dowie @ 2004-09-24 5:41 UTC (permalink / raw) "Randy Brukardt" <randy@rrsoftware.com> wrote in message news:5uKdnY_3FYH0C87cRVn-> If there was sufficient demand, I could probably be talked into making the > rest of the Claw Binding (not the GUI Builder -- gotta keep something > back!) > GMGPL. Our intent always was that the binding would be available to the > public once it stabilized enough, and I think we've reached that point. > But > I'd like to see some interest (particularly in extending it) before going > through the hastle. I've got a Claw Spashscreen extension if you want! (Thanks for the pointers ;-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-24 3:38 ` Randy Brukardt 2004-09-24 5:41 ` Martin Dowie @ 2004-09-24 10:37 ` stephane richard 2004-09-25 12:06 ` Stephen Leake 2004-09-24 17:00 ` Cesar Rabak 2 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread From: stephane richard @ 2004-09-24 10:37 UTC (permalink / raw) >If there was sufficient demand, I could probably be talked into making the >est of the Claw Binding (not the GUI Builder -- gotta keep something back!) >GMGPL. Well here's my demand ;-). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-24 10:37 ` stephane richard @ 2004-09-25 12:06 ` Stephen Leake 2004-09-27 20:59 ` Randy Brukardt 2004-10-03 16:32 ` David Botton 0 siblings, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2004-09-25 12:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: comp.lang.ada "stephane richard" <stephane.richard@verizon.net> writes: > >If there was sufficient demand, I could probably be talked into making the > >est of the Claw Binding (not the GUI Builder -- gotta keep something back!) > >GMGPL. > > Well here's my demand ;-). Stephane, I understand your enthusiasm for all Windows bindings. But it would be best if the few of us who are willing to work on Windows bindings agree to take just one forward. We should compare Windex, Gwindows, and Claw, and decide which one makes the best starting point. Or decide to merge all three into some new product. Or pick some other approach. It might be good to start with some general requirements (like "do anything Visual Basic 6 can do"). I suspect Randy will stick to Claw, since he's supporting it as a commercial product. Randy; would you be open to having others contribute to making architectural decisions about the future development of Claw? -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-25 12:06 ` Stephen Leake @ 2004-09-27 20:59 ` Randy Brukardt 2004-09-28 17:47 ` Pascal Obry 2004-10-03 16:32 ` David Botton 1 sibling, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread From: Randy Brukardt @ 2004-09-27 20:59 UTC (permalink / raw) "Stephen Leake" <stephen_leake@acm.org> wrote in message news:mailman.100.1096114015.390.comp.lang.ada@ada-france.org... > "stephane richard" <stephane.richard@verizon.net> writes: > > > >If there was sufficient demand, I could probably be talked into making the > > >est of the Claw Binding (not the GUI Builder -- gotta keep something back!) > > >GMGPL. > > > > Well here's my demand ;-). > > Stephane, I understand your enthusiasm for all Windows bindings. But > it would be best if the few of us who are willing to work on Windows > bindings agree to take just one forward. > > We should compare Windex, Gwindows, and Claw, and decide which one > makes the best starting point. Or decide to merge all three into some > new product. Or pick some other approach. It might be good to start > with some general requirements (like "do anything Visual Basic 6 can > do"). > > I suspect Randy will stick to Claw, since he's supporting it as a > commercial product. Randy; would you be open to having others > contribute to making architectural decisions about the future > development of Claw? I think so. For most areas, anyway, as there are many interesting areas where we have no customer demand. I tend to tweak things a bit when they are checked in (Tom can tell you all about that!) in order to keep things consistent. But I rarely redo them. Randy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-27 20:59 ` Randy Brukardt @ 2004-09-28 17:47 ` Pascal Obry 2004-09-28 18:25 ` stephane richard 0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread From: Pascal Obry @ 2004-09-28 17:47 UTC (permalink / raw) On big plus for Gwindows is that it can automatically generate binding for all COM/ActivX objects. Everything that come as COM/ActivX on Windows can be instantly used in Ada via Gwindows without the need to write a binding! Pascal. -- --|------------------------------------------------------ --| Pascal Obry Team-Ada Member --| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE --|------------------------------------------------------ --| http://www.obry.org --| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination" --| --| gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.pgp.net --recv-key C1082595 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-28 17:47 ` Pascal Obry @ 2004-09-28 18:25 ` stephane richard 2004-10-03 17:04 ` David Botton 0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread From: stephane richard @ 2004-09-28 18:25 UTC (permalink / raw) "Pascal Obry" <pascal@obry.org> wrote in message news:uekkmnv4c.fsf@obry.org... > > On big plus for Gwindows is that it can automatically generate binding for > all COM/ActivX objects. Everything that come as COM/ActivX on Windows can > be > instantly used in Ada via Gwindows without the need to write a binding! > > Pascal. > > -- > > --|------------------------------------------------------ > --| Pascal Obry Team-Ada Member > --| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE > --|------------------------------------------------------ > --| http://www.obry.org > --| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination" > --| > --| gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.pgp.net --recv-key C1082595 here's one I didn't know :-)...... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-28 18:25 ` stephane richard @ 2004-10-03 17:04 ` David Botton 0 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: David Botton @ 2004-10-03 17:04 UTC (permalink / raw) GWindows/GNATCOM was born out of: Personal need for a solid GMGPL Windows library that would easliy support under the covers what is needed for serious COM and Active X control use and development. (Yes, I have actually used GWindows + GNATCOM to even develop fully working Active X controls running in VB or .NET programs). Easy to use and teach (with all modesty aside its simplicity combined with extreme extensability is something I am proud of) - a person with moderate skills can teach himself most of GWindows in a few hours and any one familiar with Windows can work miracles not long after that with the advantages of Ada. Very clean and well documented (in code at least) Windows framework that took real advantage of Ada the language not just a "binding" be it thick or thin. Take a look at the way I bind to windows functions and it becomes obvious how the approach of a thick binding using a thin set of prototypes is inferior and clutters code. (I would recommend any one looking to do bindings in the future consider this approach to creating solid code around an API instead of "bindings"). To insure that Ada would be fully usable on Windows (that means even Windows CE, etc. ala GStrings and things like that) including all the new Windows technogies that are COM based (as even .NET is built on COM for the most part) in to the way future with out need for constant new bindings. To be part of my (sadly, once plan) to produce a GNU VB/Delphi killer that would start to draw more of a mass interest in Ada as a whole for all platforms (It is possible to compile large parts of GWindows using Wine under Linux, but that was not the plan, just to get a more diverese and "younger" crowd to Ada). Sadly it is so close but yet I am no longer in the position to really push for it these days. There are may other reasons as well, but these should I hope at least get people interested in looking deeper in to the heart of the GWindows and GNATCOM. There is much more to it then many realize. David Botton On 2004-09-28 14:25:40 -0400, "stephane richard" <stephane.richard@verizon.net> said: > > "Pascal Obry" <pascal@obry.org> wrote in message news:uekkmnv4c.fsf@obry.org... >> >> On big plus for Gwindows is that it can automatically generate binding for >> all COM/ActivX objects. Everything that come as COM/ActivX on Windows can be >> instantly used in Ada via Gwindows without the need to write a binding! >> >> Pascal. >> >> -- >> >> --|------------------------------------------------------ >> --| Pascal Obry Team-Ada Member >> --| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE >> --|------------------------------------------------------ >> --| http://www.obry.org >> --| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination" >> --| >> --| gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.pgp.net --recv-key C1082595 > > here's one I didn't know :-)...... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-25 12:06 ` Stephen Leake 2004-09-27 20:59 ` Randy Brukardt @ 2004-10-03 16:32 ` David Botton 2004-10-03 17:59 ` Marius Amado Alves ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: David Botton @ 2004-10-03 16:32 UTC (permalink / raw) I have a comparison between GWindows and CLAW at: http://www.adapower.com/gwindows/GWindowsVsClaw.html Stephen, I would suggest looking at the event models in GWindows in particular to see the major reason (in addition to doing what was needed to allow for COM/.Net/ActiveX controls which may be the chief reason in the end) why I didn't build off of Windex which is very tightly bound to the Windows way of doing things. Windex while in general a smaller library than GWindows does have some areas that it is better fleshed out in. GWindows is also tuned toward the larger project I was working on for a GNU Delphi replacement. (GWindows + GNATCOM + GNAVI IDE). So it is very easy to target for a GUI builder based on its dispatching model combined with inheritance. David Botton On 2004-09-25 08:06:46 -0400, Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@acm.org> said: > > We should compare Windex, Gwindows, and Claw, and decide which one > makes the best starting point. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-03 16:32 ` David Botton @ 2004-10-03 17:59 ` Marius Amado Alves 2004-10-03 19:32 ` Ludovic Brenta 2004-10-03 19:24 ` Jerry van Dijk 2004-10-04 2:06 ` Stephen Leake 2 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread From: Marius Amado Alves @ 2004-10-03 17:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: comp.lang.ada David Botton wrote: > I have a comparison between GWindows and CLAW at: > > http://www.adapower.com/gwindows/GWindowsVsClaw.html Very useful. For any effect, the last state of our little chart follows. GUI libraries for Ada comparate (C) Guys de Cla Library Binding License OSes Install Support Remarks ---------------------------------------------------------------- AdaBindX C free B,L (b) Claw W Glade free (a) GtkAda C free B,L,M,S,W GWindows free JEWL free W easy TASH Tcl/Tk free B,W,L Windex GMGPL W free Win32 free W ---------------------------------------------------------------- (a) visual tool for GtkAda (b) other features: Xlib, Xt, Xm (motif/lesstif) Binding: Programming language X, if the library is a binding to a library in X. OSes: B = BSD L = Linux M = MacOS S = Solaris W = Windows Install: easy = installs out of the box hard = requires a guru Support: free = dedicated volunteer structure e.g. a maillist (not CLA) com = commercial support no = no support (but of course CLA continues to exist) Append "/doc" if documentation exists (free) * Threads in comp.lang.ada * GTK GWindows and David Botton ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-03 17:59 ` Marius Amado Alves @ 2004-10-03 19:32 ` Ludovic Brenta 2004-10-03 20:21 ` Jerry van Dijk 2004-10-04 19:13 ` tmoran 0 siblings, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Ludovic Brenta @ 2004-10-03 19:32 UTC (permalink / raw) Marius Amado Alves writes: > GUI libraries for Ada comparate > (C) Guys de Cla Allow me to elaborate. I've added a new column for the underlying GUI library or system, in addition to the target language of the binding. Also I've filled in some of the licenses. Library Binding License OSes GUI Install Support Remarks ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- AdaBindX C GMGPL B,L Lesstif (d) (b) Claw W Win32 comm Glade GPL B,L,? GTK+ (d) (a) GtkAda C GMGPL B,L,M,S,W GTK+ (d) comm GWindows C GMGPL W Win32 JEWL free W Win32 easy TASH Tcl GMGPL B,W,L Tk (d*) Windex GMGPL W Win32 free Win32 C free W Win32 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- (a) visual GUI builder and code generator (gate) for GtkAda (b) binding to Xlib, Xt, and Xm (motif/lesstif) In the Install column, (d) means a Debian package is available, making install easy. Note that I have packaged TASH but I am unwilling to support it in Debian. If anyone wants to step in, I will gladly send them the package. In the Support column, "comm" means commercial support is available. -- Ludovic Brenta. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-03 19:32 ` Ludovic Brenta @ 2004-10-03 20:21 ` Jerry van Dijk 2004-10-04 19:13 ` tmoran 1 sibling, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Jerry van Dijk @ 2004-10-03 20:21 UTC (permalink / raw) Ludovic Brenta writes: > Glade GPL B,L,? GTK+ (d) (a) If you include Glade, you might also want to include RAPID: ftp://sunsite.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/pub/mirror/ftp.usafa.af.mil/pub/dfcs/carlisle/usafa/rapid/index.html BTW: I am of birding this week, back friday afternoon. -- -- Jerry van Dijk -- Leiden, Holland -- -- 'Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire." -- Gustav Mahler (1860-1911) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-03 19:32 ` Ludovic Brenta 2004-10-03 20:21 ` Jerry van Dijk @ 2004-10-04 19:13 ` tmoran 2004-10-05 0:54 ` David Botton 1 sibling, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread From: tmoran @ 2004-10-04 19:13 UTC (permalink / raw) >Library Binding License OSes GUI Install Support Remarks >Claw W Win32 comm The line for Claw in the table should be split (now, at least) into the Intro Edition and the Full Version. Also the Install column should say "easy" for both, and the Remarks should add (e) (like (a)) Library Binding License OSes GUI Install Support Remarks Intro Claw C GMGPL W Win32 easy free (e) Full Claw C comm W Win32 easy comm (e) (e) visual GUI builder available I don't understand why the three support categories are "free", "comm", and blank. Do "free" and blank both mean the same, and shouldn't that be "volunteer"? I also suggest a column "coverage", a quantifiable measure of which is the number of distinct "pragma Import"ed functions. A quick count for Claw showed: Intro Claw 468 Full Claw 498 The table should also include a measure of the docs and provided sample programs in the "official version". ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-04 19:13 ` tmoran @ 2004-10-05 0:54 ` David Botton 2004-10-05 1:23 ` David Botton ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: David Botton @ 2004-10-05 0:54 UTC (permalink / raw) I think that using pragma import as a measure is a bit of a problem. Both GWindows and CLAW offer much more functionality than just an API layer. The other problem is that GWindows allows for instant extension using ActiveX controls and COM bindings generated by GNATCOM. Also, you may want to include the Windows API bindings that come with GNAT and also GNATWin (the original GNATWin, ie the one I created not the gnatwin package for GNAT the compiler) Windows thin API bindings from the GNATCOM page. (BTW if we do a pragma import count it beats GWindows and CLAW, not that I recommend it for anything but cut and paste with either framework available :-) David Botton > I also suggest a column "coverage", a quantifiable measure of which is > the number of distinct "pragma Import"ed functions. A quick count for > Claw showed: > Intro Claw 468 > Full Claw 498 > > The table should also include a measure of the docs and provided sample > programs in the "official version". ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-05 0:54 ` David Botton @ 2004-10-05 1:23 ` David Botton 2004-10-05 1:27 ` Stephen Leake 2004-10-05 23:20 ` Randy Brukardt 2 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: David Botton @ 2004-10-05 1:23 UTC (permalink / raw) GNAVI List Repaired When I had to move AdaPower mail a few months ago to a new server the GNAVI (This is the e-mail list that supports GWindows and GNATCOM) list had been busted. It is now repaired and I will work on recovering the e-mails that were on the list (a few hundred). So I would ask to add to your table that volunteer support is available as it was up until a few months ago for GWindows. For those that are interested and would like to join the list send the word subscribe in the subject to gnavi-list@gnavi.org I have also temporarily set up gnavi.org to refer to the COM page on AdaPower, but will update it with updates of GWindows, GNATCOM and updates about GNAVI (the GNU Ada Visual IDE) soon. Thanks, David Botton ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-05 0:54 ` David Botton 2004-10-05 1:23 ` David Botton @ 2004-10-05 1:27 ` Stephen Leake 2004-10-05 3:39 ` David Botton 2004-10-05 23:20 ` Randy Brukardt 2 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2004-10-05 1:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: comp.lang.ada David Botton <david@botton.com> writes: > I think that using pragma import as a measure is a bit of a problem. > Both GWindows and CLAW offer much more functionality than just an API > layer. It is _one_ measure; it certainly should not be the _only_ measure. > The other problem is that GWindows allows for instant extension > using ActiveX controls and COM bindings generated by GNATCOM. Is there some reason we can't use those same bindings with CLAW? I looked thru the output of GNATCOM in the GWindows directory; it does not 'with' GWindows, so it seems like it would be just as easy to use with CLAW. -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-05 1:27 ` Stephen Leake @ 2004-10-05 3:39 ` David Botton 0 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: David Botton @ 2004-10-05 3:39 UTC (permalink / raw) GNATCOM can certainly be used with CLAW. There are some issues with GUI ActiveX controls related to CLAW's use of tasks, but even that with some effort can be worked out. David Botton On 2004-10-04 21:27:31 -0400, Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@acm.org> said: > > Is there some reason we can't use those same bindings with CLAW? > I looked thru the output of GNATCOM in the GWindows directory; it does > not 'with' GWindows, so it seems like it would be just as easy to use > with CLAW. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-05 0:54 ` David Botton 2004-10-05 1:23 ` David Botton 2004-10-05 1:27 ` Stephen Leake @ 2004-10-05 23:20 ` Randy Brukardt 2 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Randy Brukardt @ 2004-10-05 23:20 UTC (permalink / raw) "David Botton" <david@botton.com> wrote in message news:2004100420540216807%david@bottoncom... > I think that using pragma import as a measure is a bit of a problem. > Both GWindows and CLAW offer much more functionality than just an API > layer. One problem with using a pragma Import count is that so many Windows functions are messages, and they don't show up in such a could. I've informally used the subprogram count for such things, but it too doesn't prove much. It's the level and the design that matter. Randy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-03 16:32 ` David Botton 2004-10-03 17:59 ` Marius Amado Alves @ 2004-10-03 19:24 ` Jerry van Dijk 2004-10-04 2:06 ` Stephen Leake 2 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Jerry van Dijk @ 2004-10-03 19:24 UTC (permalink / raw) David Botton writes: > GWindows is also tuned toward the larger project I was working on for a GNU > Delphi replacement. (GWindows + GNATCOM + GNAVI IDE). So it is very easy to > target for a GUI builder based on its dispatching model combined with > inheritance. Indeed. Even when not on a Delphi 3 level immediately such a tool would facilitate the serious use of Ada for real bread-and-butter Windows applications. I have not brought this up as it seemed GWindows was dead in the water. However, putting my money where my mouth is, I'd be willing to put some time in moving GNAVI further along. -- -- Jerry van Dijk -- Leiden, Holland -- -- 'Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire." -- Gustav Mahler (1860-1911) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-03 16:32 ` David Botton 2004-10-03 17:59 ` Marius Amado Alves 2004-10-03 19:24 ` Jerry van Dijk @ 2004-10-04 2:06 ` Stephen Leake 2004-10-04 13:23 ` David Botton 2004-10-04 13:43 ` David Botton 2 siblings, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2004-10-04 2:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: comp.lang.ada David Botton <david@botton.com> writes: > I have a comparison between GWindows and CLAW at: > > http://www.adapower.com/gwindows/GWindowsVsClaw.html Looks good. I was not aware of the issue around ActiveX controls (I've never used one). > Stephen, I would suggest looking at the event models in GWindows in > particular to see the major reason (in addition to doing what was > needed to allow for COM/.Net/ActiveX controls which may be the chief > reason in the end) why I didn't build off of Windex which is very > tightly bound to the Windows way of doing things. Sorry, I don't see the event mechanism in GWindows as very compelling. It is nowhere near as powerful as the event mechanism in Gtk. It has no marshalling of parameters, and only one handler per event. In fact, I don't see how it is better than the inheritance overloading mechanism. > Windex while in general a smaller library than GWindows does have > some areas that it is better fleshed out in. Thanks. -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-04 2:06 ` Stephen Leake @ 2004-10-04 13:23 ` David Botton 2004-10-04 13:43 ` David Botton 1 sibling, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: David Botton @ 2004-10-04 13:23 UTC (permalink / raw) It is not the power but simplicity and the fact that the overloading mechanism is still there as well any time you want. It beautifly fulfills its goal, a GUI library intended to be as close as posible but not too close to the underlying API to simplify use. David Botton On 2004-10-03 22:06:07 -0400, Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@acm.org> said: > > Sorry, I don't see the event mechanism in GWindows as very compelling. > It is nowhere near as powerful as the event mechanism in Gtk. It has > no marshalling of parameters, and only one handler per event. In fact, > I don't see how it is better than the inheritance overloading mechanism. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-04 2:06 ` Stephen Leake 2004-10-04 13:23 ` David Botton @ 2004-10-04 13:43 ` David Botton 1 sibling, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: David Botton @ 2004-10-04 13:43 UTC (permalink / raw) Just to emphasize my point, try teaching some one just in to programming to use any of the other GUI libraries and then GWindows. GWindows is targeted for ease of use by a VB / Delphi crowd. Adding multiple handlers is easy to implement for some one like me or you if we needed them using GWindows either through inheritance or creating a generic adapter to the current mechanisms. From practical real world experience, the idea of using multiple handlers leads to sloppy programs unless you have tight control on the entire development process or all top notch people working for you. David Botton On 2004-10-03 22:06:07 -0400, Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@acm.org> said: > > Sorry, I don't see the event mechanism in GWindows as very compelling. > It is nowhere near as powerful as the event mechanism in Gtk. It has > no marshalling of parameters, and only one handler per event. In fact, > I don't see how it is better than the inheritance overloading mechanism. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-24 3:38 ` Randy Brukardt 2004-09-24 5:41 ` Martin Dowie 2004-09-24 10:37 ` stephane richard @ 2004-09-24 17:00 ` Cesar Rabak 2 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Cesar Rabak @ 2004-09-24 17:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Randy Brukardt escreveu: > "Stephen Leake" <stephen_leake@acm.org> wrote in message > news:mailman.83.1095986128.390.comp.lang.ada@ada-france.org... > ... > >>I'm considering giving up on GtkAda for Windows development, and >>resurrecting Windex (long story, for another thread :). But I would >>consider joining an open Gwindows project, instead. I always thought >>Windex and Gwindows should be merged. > > > Another alternative (if you're starting over) is to work from the > Introductory version of Claw, which is also GMGPL. (I've got to find the > time to update the distribution to reflect that.) It's of course still > supported and actively worked on (not as much as I'd like, though). And Claw > works with a number of Ada compilers; you're not tied to GNAT when you use > it. > > If there was sufficient demand, I could probably be talked into making the > rest of the Claw Binding (not the GUI Builder -- gotta keep something back!) Could't the GUI Builder be integrated with GPS? -- Cesar Rabak ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-24 0:35 ` Stephen Leake 2004-09-24 3:38 ` Randy Brukardt @ 2004-09-24 5:45 ` Fionn mac Cuimhaill 2004-09-25 12:01 ` Stephen Leake 2004-09-26 21:57 ` Stephen McNeill 2004-09-24 18:58 ` Pascal Obry 2004-10-03 16:03 ` David Botton 3 siblings, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Fionn mac Cuimhaill @ 2004-09-24 5:45 UTC (permalink / raw) On 23 Sep 2004 20:35:20 -0400, Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@acm.org> wrote: >Fionn mac Cuimhaill <invisible@hiding.from.spam> writes: > >> <snip GWindows stuff> >> >> The Gwindows/GNATCOM mailing list seems to be defunct, and I would >> also like to find a way to organize a replacement for it. > >I suggest you use this newsgroup (comp.lang.ada), until it becomes >clear that you need another forum. I, for one, would like to hear if >Gwindows becomes a better supported and more widely used project. > >I'm considering giving up on GtkAda for Windows development, and >resurrecting Windex (long story, for another thread :). But I would >consider joining an open Gwindows project, instead. I always thought >Windex and Gwindows should be merged. OK, that sounds fine to me - I will go with comp.lang.ada as a communication medium I have neve done anything with Sourceforge other than download software from it. Does anyone here who might want to work on GWindows have any experience with it? In any case, I will investigate Sourceforge myself and see what it takes to start a new project there. And to get started, I would like to start laying out a roadmap of things that need to get done. I can think of several areas that can stand some more work. 1. Documentation. The existing tutorial intro is a good start, but it needs much work, as do the associated tutorial examples. For example, there is no section in the tutorial intro about the use of radio buttons, and there is no corresponding example program. Some of the examples show several variations of ways to do things, which might be best broken up into several independent example programs. The numbering scheme for tutorial programs needs to be changed so that new ones can be added without renumbering all of the later ones. A reference manual is needed. Documentation should be available in some form other than Word, as not everybody has or likes it. Anybody can get a free Adobe pdf reader, and I can easily create documents in that form. (I actually like WordPerfect, but few use it nowadays, although it can easily produce both pdf and html outputs.) 2. Bugs need to be identified and fixed. I hereby call for bug reports, so that we can look to see what needs to be done. 3. Deficiencies in existing areas need to be addressed. An example here is edit boxes. There seems to be no general way to capture character entered into an edit box and do special handling for things like carriage returns. In general, if Visual Basic can do something, GWindows should be able to do the same thing. 4. Expansion areas need to be identified. Printing is important for me. I want to do printing additions in two stages. The first level should bring printing support up to a rough equivalent of what can be done with Visual Basic 6, but done in a more coherent Ada way. The second level needs to add some kind of higher-level document abstraction. I have in mind something like the qPrinter package for Visual Basic 6. (Google for qPrinter and you will find it immediately.) The existing thin binding to the Windows printing API should not be neglected - various API functions are missing and should be added. 5. Various extensions need to be done to character string handling. Gwindows tries to hide the difference between character representation among the various versions of Windows by defining a GString to be composed of either ordinary or wide characters as needed, and likewise tries to hide the differences between various Windows API procedures and functions that use string arguments. This hiding philosophy in not completely implemented and I still need to use a variety of Ada system packages that have both ordinary and wide-character versions. (Typically the wide versions, as I do all of my development on Windows 2K and XP) I'm going to need help; I am far from being the best Ada programmer in the world and I know little about low-level Windows API programming. If all goes well, both of those situations will change for the better as this project develops. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-24 5:45 ` Fionn mac Cuimhaill @ 2004-09-25 12:01 ` Stephen Leake 2004-09-26 16:21 ` Fionn mac Cuimhaill 2004-09-26 21:57 ` Stephen McNeill 1 sibling, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2004-09-25 12:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: comp.lang.ada Fionn mac Cuimhaill <invisible@hiding.from.spam> writes: > OK, that sounds fine to me - I will go with comp.lang.ada as a > communication medium I have neve done anything with Sourceforge other > than download software from it. Does anyone here who might want to > work on GWindows have any experience with it? I'm an administrator on the Grace project on Savannah; I believe Sourceforge is similar. Note that Grace is no longer active. > In any case, I will investigate Sourceforge myself and see what it > takes to start a new project there. Ok. Please don't start one until we get some agreement about who's going to be a member. We might not want to call it Gwindows :). We should take seriously Randy's offer to open up the rest of Claw. I have not examined much of Claw or Gwindows (I have of course read all of Windex :), but from what I remember, I believe Claw is the best structured of the three. I'll download the current Gwindows and Claw and give them another look. But if there are enough people already using Gwindows, it makes sense to go with that. > And to get started, I would like to start laying out a roadmap of > things that need to get done. I can think of several areas that can > stand some more work. Ok. > 1. Documentation. The existing tutorial intro is a good start, but > it needs much work, as do the associated tutorial examples. For > example, there is no section in the tutorial intro about the use of > radio buttons, and there is no corresponding example program. > > Some of the examples show several variations of ways to do things, > which might be best broken up into several independent example > programs. The numbering scheme for tutorial programs needs to be > changed so that new ones can be added without renumbering all of the > later ones. Tutorials are always good, and always hard to get people to write. I wrote test code for Windex, but not a tutorial. It is a good idea to keep it on the List of Things To Do :). Speaking of which, test code should also be included, preferably for every package. I've got a GUI test driver framework for Win32 that works quite nicely. > A reference manual is needed. I hope that the Ada specs can be the reference manual, given a good tutorial and the MS API documentation. Again, getting people to write documentation is hard. > Documentation should be available in some form other than Word, as not > everybody has or likes it. Anybody can get a free Adobe pdf reader, > and I can easily create documents in that form. (I actually like > WordPerfect, but few use it nowadays, although it can easily produce > both pdf and html outputs.) PDF is definitely the way to go for distribution. I prefer LaTeX for the source format; it works nicely with CVS for change control. > 2. Bugs need to be identified and fixed. I hereby call for bug > reports, so that we can look to see what needs to be done. Sourceforge has a nice bug reporting and tracking feature. > 3. Deficiencies in existing areas need to be addressed. An example > here is edit boxes. There seems to be no general way to capture > character entered into an edit box and do special handling for > things like carriage returns. In general, if Visual Basic can do > something, GWindows should be able to do the same thing. Yes, that's a good guideline. > 4. Expansion areas need to be identified. Printing is important for > me. I want to do printing additions in two stages. The first level > should bring printing support up to a rough equivalent of what can > be done with Visual Basic 6, but done in a more coherent Ada way. > The second level needs to add some kind of higher-level document > abstraction. I have in mind something like the qPrinter package for > Visual Basic 6. (Google for qPrinter and you will find it > immediately.) This raises the issue of architecture control. Will the Gwindows project be a cathedral or a bazarre? Do we want to form a group that requires consensus on major design decisions (like this one), or just a set of people who happen to share a CVS repository? In general, I prefer a consensus design, but it can be difficult to manage. > The existing thin binding to the Windows printing API should not be > neglected - various API functions are missing and should be added. Ok. > 5. Various extensions need to be done to character string handling. > Gwindows tries to hide the difference between character > representation among the various versions of Windows by defining a > GString to be composed of either ordinary or wide characters as > needed, and likewise tries to hide the differences between various > Windows API procedures and functions that use string arguments. This > hiding philosophy in not completely implemented and I still need to > use a variety of Ada system packages that have both ordinary and > wide-character versions. (Typically the wide versions, as I do all of > my development on Windows 2K and XP) Hmm. In Windex I supported both Character and Wide-Character as I needed to. I'd prefer that over "hidden magic". But I'm not familiar with all the localization issues; I've seen some messages here that imply we really need a Wide-Wide-Character. > I'm going to need help; I am far from being the best Ada programmer in > the world I can help there :). > and I know little about low-level Windows API programming. I recommend you buy "Win32 Programming" by Brent E. Rector, Joseph M. Newcomer. It covers most of the Win32 API, using just C. That makes it easy to figure out how to do the same things in Ada. It's a little old (1997), but it does a very good job of explaining all the things that MS leaves out of their documentation. Another good book is "Programming Windows" by Charles Petzold. That's more tutorial oriented, and doesn't cover as much of the API as "Win32 Programming". At the same time, the MS API documentation is online at http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/winprog/winprog/windows_api_reference.asp ; it is quite readable (once you've read "Win32 Programming" :). > If all goes well, both of those situations will change for the > better as this project develops. Yes, that's true :). -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-25 12:01 ` Stephen Leake @ 2004-09-26 16:21 ` Fionn mac Cuimhaill 2004-10-03 16:37 ` David Botton 0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread From: Fionn mac Cuimhaill @ 2004-09-26 16:21 UTC (permalink / raw) On 25 Sep 2004 08:01:25 -0400, Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@acm.org> wrote: >Fionn mac Cuimhaill <invisible@hiding.from.spam> writes: > >> OK, that sounds fine to me - I will go with comp.lang.ada as a >> communication medium I have neve done anything with Sourceforge other >> than download software from it. Does anyone here who might want to >> work on GWindows have any experience with it? > >I'm an administrator on the Grace project on Savannah; I believe >Sourceforge is similar. > >Note that Grace is no longer active. > >> In any case, I will investigate Sourceforge myself and see what it >> takes to start a new project there. > >Ok. Please don't start one until we get some agreement about who's >going to be a member. We might not want to call it Gwindows :). > >We should take seriously Randy's offer to open up the rest of Claw. I >have not examined much of Claw or Gwindows (I have of course read all >of Windex :), but from what I remember, I believe Claw is the best >structured of the three. > >I'll download the current Gwindows and Claw and give them another >look. > >But if there are enough people already using Gwindows, it makes sense >to go with that. > >> And to get started, I would like to start laying out a roadmap of >> things that need to get done. I can think of several areas that can >> stand some more work. > >Ok. > >> 1. Documentation. The existing tutorial intro is a good start, but >> it needs much work, as do the associated tutorial examples. For >> example, there is no section in the tutorial intro about the use of >> radio buttons, and there is no corresponding example program. >> >> Some of the examples show several variations of ways to do things, >> which might be best broken up into several independent example >> programs. The numbering scheme for tutorial programs needs to be >> changed so that new ones can be added without renumbering all of the >> later ones. > >Tutorials are always good, and always hard to get people to write. I >wrote test code for Windex, but not a tutorial. It is a good idea to >keep it on the List of Things To Do :). > >Speaking of which, test code should also be included, preferably for >every package. I've got a GUI test driver framework for Win32 that >works quite nicely. > >> A reference manual is needed. > >I hope that the Ada specs can be the reference manual, given a good >tutorial and the MS API documentation. Again, getting people to write >documentation is hard. > >> Documentation should be available in some form other than Word, as not >> everybody has or likes it. Anybody can get a free Adobe pdf reader, >> and I can easily create documents in that form. (I actually like >> WordPerfect, but few use it nowadays, although it can easily produce >> both pdf and html outputs.) > >PDF is definitely the way to go for distribution. I prefer LaTeX for >the source format; it works nicely with CVS for change control. LaTeX is OK with me - I started with LaTeX 15 years ago, which I used to document a large Fortran project that had grown up over several years without adequate documentation. > >> 2. Bugs need to be identified and fixed. I hereby call for bug >> reports, so that we can look to see what needs to be done. > >Sourceforge has a nice bug reporting and tracking feature. > >> 3. Deficiencies in existing areas need to be addressed. An example >> here is edit boxes. There seems to be no general way to capture >> character entered into an edit box and do special handling for >> things like carriage returns. In general, if Visual Basic can do >> something, GWindows should be able to do the same thing. > >Yes, that's a good guideline. > >> 4. Expansion areas need to be identified. Printing is important for >> me. I want to do printing additions in two stages. The first level >> should bring printing support up to a rough equivalent of what can >> be done with Visual Basic 6, but done in a more coherent Ada way. >> The second level needs to add some kind of higher-level document >> abstraction. I have in mind something like the qPrinter package for >> Visual Basic 6. (Google for qPrinter and you will find it >> immediately.) > >This raises the issue of architecture control. Will the Gwindows >project be a cathedral or a bazarre? Do we want to form a group that >requires consensus on major design decisions (like this one), or just >a set of people who happen to share a CVS repository? Some concensus is certainly desirable, as it will help to keep a good team together. However, I don't want to build a GWindows architecture that makes different ways of doing things impossible. In the printing project that I want to do, I want to build a Gwindows printer object similar in concept to the VB printer object, so that it can form a stable base for higher level abstractions. For now, I'll call it GPrinterObject. I would like to build a printable document abstraction on top of that (GDocument) I want to keep the two cleanly separated, so that other printing projects using a quite different design philosophy can be built on top of GPrinterObject. > >In general, I prefer a consensus design, but it can be difficult to >manage. > >> The existing thin binding to the Windows printing API should not be >> neglected - various API functions are missing and should be added. > >Ok. > >> 5. Various extensions need to be done to character string handling. >> Gwindows tries to hide the difference between character >> representation among the various versions of Windows by defining a >> GString to be composed of either ordinary or wide characters as >> needed, and likewise tries to hide the differences between various >> Windows API procedures and functions that use string arguments. This >> hiding philosophy in not completely implemented and I still need to >> use a variety of Ada system packages that have both ordinary and >> wide-character versions. (Typically the wide versions, as I do all of >> my development on Windows 2K and XP) > >Hmm. In Windex I supported both Character and Wide-Character as I >needed to. I'd prefer that over "hidden magic". But I'm not familiar >with all the localization issues; I've seen some messages here that >imply we really need a Wide-Wide-Character. The "hidden magic" of the GString character type is quite simple, but it is used almost everywhere in GWindows where character strings are needed. It would be simpler to proceed with that philosophy rather that to change it. > >> I'm going to need help; I am far from being the best Ada programmer in >> the world > >I can help there :). > >> and I know little about low-level Windows API programming. > >I recommend you buy "Win32 Programming" by Brent E. Rector, Joseph M. >Newcomer. It covers most of the Win32 API, using just C. That makes it >easy to figure out how to do the same things in Ada. It's a little old >(1997), but it does a very good job of explaining all the things that >MS leaves out of their documentation. > >Another good book is "Programming Windows" by Charles Petzold. That's >more tutorial oriented, and doesn't cover as much of the API as "Win32 >Programming". > >At the same time, the MS API documentation is online at >http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/winprog/winprog/windows_api_reference.asp >; it is quite readable (once you've read "Win32 Programming" :). > >> If all goes well, both of those situations will change for the >> better as this project develops. > >Yes, that's true :). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-26 16:21 ` Fionn mac Cuimhaill @ 2004-10-03 16:37 ` David Botton 0 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: David Botton @ 2004-10-03 16:37 UTC (permalink / raw) The reference manual for GWindows looks like it broke when I moved servers, but GWindows specs are extremely well documented and using AdaBrowse I generated a great Reference manual for it. I don't have anything set up right now to rerun AdaBrowse on the specs, but I would recommend starting with something like that for GWindows. David Botton On 2004-09-26 12:21:24 -0400, Fionn mac Cuimhaill <invisible@hiding.from.spam> said: >> >> I hope that the Ada specs can be the reference manual, given a good >> tutorial and the MS API documentation. Again, getting people to write >> documentation is hard. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-24 5:45 ` Fionn mac Cuimhaill 2004-09-25 12:01 ` Stephen Leake @ 2004-09-26 21:57 ` Stephen McNeill 2004-09-26 22:08 ` tmoran 2004-09-27 6:13 ` Fionn mac Cuimhaill 1 sibling, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Stephen McNeill @ 2004-09-26 21:57 UTC (permalink / raw) Fionn mac Cuimhaill <invisible@hiding.from.spam> wrote in message news:<9g87l018jg6p8q7vi6ttbdvrelt3ohrpfo@4ax.com>... ... > And to get started, I would like to start laying out a roadmap of > things that need to get done. I can think of several areas that can > stand some more work. > > 1. Documentation. The existing tutorial intro is a good start, but it > needs much work, as do the associated tutorial examples. For example, > there is no section in the tutorial intro about the use of radio > buttons, and there is no corresponding example program. > > Some of the examples show several variations of ways to do things, > which might be best broken up into several independent example > programs. The numbering scheme for tutorial programs needs to be > changed so that new ones can be added without renumbering all of the > later ones. > > A reference manual is needed. > > Documentation should be available in some form other than Word, as not > everybody has or likes it. Anybody can get a free Adobe pdf reader, > and I can easily create documents in that form. (I actually like > WordPerfect, but few use it nowadays, although it can easily produce > both pdf and html outputs.) It seems not many enjoy writing documentation... What a shame, I enjoy it. I updated the existing (Botton) documentation for my own use and added a reference manual, but I agree that it needs to be substantially updated, and preferably overhauled completely. If this project goes ahead with some kind of structure, I'd be happy to start working on the documentation and reference manual. > I'm going to need help; I am far from being the best Ada programmer in > the world and I know little about low-level Windows API programming. > If all goes well, both of those situations will change for the better > as this project develops. I think the key thing is to get the package up to the point where it has the annoying bugs removed, and the basic capability smoothed out, and documentation provided, so that new users can have some confidence that using the package will be worth the investment in time. Then, and only then, I think it will be worthwhile adding new modules, covering new or expanded sections of the Windows API. That doesn't stop anyone developing new capabilities of course. Personally, I'm interested in extending the package in the multimedia area, as well as providing some capability for graphics. Stephen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-26 21:57 ` Stephen McNeill @ 2004-09-26 22:08 ` tmoran 2004-09-27 6:13 ` Fionn mac Cuimhaill 1 sibling, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: tmoran @ 2004-09-26 22:08 UTC (permalink / raw) >Personally, I'm interested in extending the [GWindows?] package in the >multimedia area, as well as providing some capability for graphics. Claw has, in testing, Claw.Multimedia.Audio & Claw.Multimedia.Video with some example programs. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-26 21:57 ` Stephen McNeill 2004-09-26 22:08 ` tmoran @ 2004-09-27 6:13 ` Fionn mac Cuimhaill 2004-09-27 12:31 ` Georg Bauhaus 2004-10-03 16:40 ` David Botton 1 sibling, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Fionn mac Cuimhaill @ 2004-09-27 6:13 UTC (permalink / raw) On 26 Sep 2004 14:57:54 -0700, mcneills@landcareresearch.co.nz (Stephen McNeill) wrote: ... snip ... > >It seems not many enjoy writing documentation... What a shame, I enjoy >it. > >I updated the existing (Botton) documentation for my own use and added >a reference manual, but I agree that it needs to be substantially >updated, and preferably overhauled completely. If this project goes >ahead with some kind of structure, I'd be happy to start working on >the documentation and reference manual. Very good - we should use your improvemenrs as a first step. ... snip ... >I think the key thing is to get the package up to the point where it >has the annoying bugs removed, and the basic capability smoothed out, >and documentation provided, so that new users can have some confidence >that using the package will be worth the investment in time. Then, and >only then, I think it will be worthwhile adding new modules, covering >new or expanded sections of the Windows API. That doesn't stop anyone >developing new capabilities of course. I pretty much agree here. My main reason for pushing ahead with the printing stuff is that I have an immediate need for it. The very first step should be to establish a new home for GWindows. I looked at Sourceforge, and one of the things that it wants done in setting up a new project there is to establish that the software license really is an open-source license. The GWindows license is the GNU GPL with this tweak: "As a special exception, if other files instantiate generics from this unit, or you link this unit with other files to produce an executable, this unit does not by itself cause the resulting executable to be covered by the GNU General Public License. This exception does not however invalidate any other reasons why the executable file might be covered by the GNU Public License." Do we need to improve on this, or is this OK as it stands? We should make sure that we have a good open-source license regardless of which home GWindows finds, whether it be Sourceforge or some other place. > >Personally, I'm interested in extending the package in the multimedia >area, as well as providing some capability for graphics. Graphics will overlap with printing - I definitely approve. > >Stephen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-27 6:13 ` Fionn mac Cuimhaill @ 2004-09-27 12:31 ` Georg Bauhaus 2004-09-27 21:23 ` Stephen McNeill 2004-10-03 16:40 ` David Botton 1 sibling, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread From: Georg Bauhaus @ 2004-09-27 12:31 UTC (permalink / raw) Fionn mac Cuimhaill <invisible@hiding.from.spam> wrote: : On 26 Sep 2004 14:57:54 -0700, mcneills@landcareresearch.co.nz : (Stephen McNeill) wrote: : : ... snip ... :> :>It seems not many enjoy writing documentation... What a shame, I enjoy :>it. :> :>I updated the existing (Botton) documentation for my own use and added :>a reference manual, but I agree that it needs to be substantially :>updated, and preferably overhauled completely. If this project goes :>ahead with some kind of structure, I'd be happy to start working on :>the documentation and reference manual. : : Very good - we should use your improvemenrs as a first step. I hope that Randy Brukardt's and Tom Moran's respective offers (making the rest of CLAW GMGPLed, which, if I understand correctly, will include the media packages) are not deliberately ignored? Or is there some technical profit in not co-ordinating efforts? I guess Ada vendors have customer who do already use CLAW. Will they be attracted to another great effort likely to be very similar to CLAW, and abandon a supported product (CLAW) that already meets their needs? What kind of support can they expect? Conversly, imagine that for a Windows bindings project you had - RR Software's experience in building Windows bindings - CLAW customers' interest in the project if based on CLAW - and possibly other vendors' (and customers') interest in an alternative high level Ada binding. -- Georg ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-27 12:31 ` Georg Bauhaus @ 2004-09-27 21:23 ` Stephen McNeill 0 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Stephen McNeill @ 2004-09-27 21:23 UTC (permalink / raw) Georg Bauhaus <sb463ba@l1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de> wrote in message news:<cj916q$8as$1@a1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de>... > I hope that Randy Brukardt's and Tom Moran's respective offers (making > the rest of CLAW GMGPLed, which, if I understand correctly, will include > the media packages) are not deliberately ignored? > > Or is there some technical profit in not co-ordinating efforts? > I guess Ada vendors have customer who do already use CLAW. Will > they be attracted to another great effort likely to be very similar > to CLAW, and abandon a supported product (CLAW) that already meets > their needs? > What kind of support can they expect? > > Conversly, imagine that for a Windows bindings project you had > - RR Software's experience in building Windows bindings > - CLAW customers' interest in the project if based on CLAW > - and possibly other vendors' (and customers') interest in an > alternative high level Ada binding. > > > -- Georg Georg, that is a fair point. That is one of the reasons why (in a message a few weeks ago I think) I asked whether it was important to continue working with GWindows, or alternatively give it a decent burial. If the consensus is to stand in behind CLAW, then provided there is some general assurance that it is likely to survive, with a basic cost that is generally acceptable to a reasonable range of users, then I shall stand in line to offer help. Stephen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-27 6:13 ` Fionn mac Cuimhaill 2004-09-27 12:31 ` Georg Bauhaus @ 2004-10-03 16:40 ` David Botton 2004-10-04 1:57 ` Stephen Leake [not found] ` <ullenfdo8.fsf@acm.org> 1 sibling, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: David Botton @ 2004-10-03 16:40 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2004-09-27 02:13:22 -0400, Fionn mac Cuimhaill <invisible@hiding.from.spam> said: > The very first step should be to establish a new home for GWindows. I would recommend just keeping it where it is and I'll offer FTP access to you and others. > The GWindows license is the GNU GPL with this tweak: This is the standard Modified GPL of GNAT. It doesn't get freerer than that or your messed anyways :-) David Botton ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-03 16:40 ` David Botton @ 2004-10-04 1:57 ` Stephen Leake 2004-10-04 13:31 ` David Botton [not found] ` <ullenfdo8.fsf@acm.org> 1 sibling, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2004-10-04 1:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: comp.lang.ada David Botton <david@botton.com> writes: > On 2004-09-27 02:13:22 -0400, Fionn mac Cuimhaill > <invisible@hiding.from.spam> said: > > > The very first step should be to establish a new home for GWindows. > > I would recommend just keeping it where it is and I'll offer FTP > access to you and others. Hmm. Welcome back, David. I would prefer to join a project that has more robust support. Several people tried to contact you about GWindows, and were unsuccessful. -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-04 1:57 ` Stephen Leake @ 2004-10-04 13:31 ` David Botton 2004-10-05 0:54 ` Stephen Leake 0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread From: David Botton @ 2004-10-04 13:31 UTC (permalink / raw) The most robust support is one you pay for. I would recommend for you the pay version of CLAW. What I am hoping will be accomplished (again, as I tried this before) here in the next day or so (I am on vacation, ie. why I've got some time on my hands and posting) is for GWindows, GNATCOM and AdaPower to become community efforts. David Botton On 2004-10-03 21:57:27 -0400, Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@acm.org> said: > > Hmm. Welcome back, David. > I would prefer to join a project that has more robust support. Several > people tried to contact you about GWindows, and were unsuccessful. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-04 13:31 ` David Botton @ 2004-10-05 0:54 ` Stephen Leake 2004-10-05 15:39 ` David Botton 0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2004-10-05 0:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: comp.lang.ada David Botton <david@botton.com> writes: > The most robust support is one you pay for. I would recommend for you > the pay version of CLAW. Well, no; I plan on providing support for the community Windows binding, on a volunteer basis. I also plan to use it in my own projects. I was refering to the support of the CVS server. SourceForge is well supported as a community project server; AdaPower is not. > What I am hoping will be accomplished (again, as I tried this > before) here in the next day or so (I am on vacation, ie. why I've > got some time on my hands and posting) is for GWindows, GNATCOM and > AdaPower to become community efforts. What, exactly, do you mean by this? You have joined near the end of a discussion with a similar goal; to establish a community-supported thick Windows binding. We are converging on agreement to start with CLAW, and merge in Windex and GWindows. (At least, that's my impression; the discussion is not over yet). We have pretty much agreed that SourceForge is the best host for the community effort, because: 1) It is well supported; does not rely on any one person. 2) It provides good tools for distributed projects (CVS, bug/task trackers). Would you be willing to join such a project, as a developer and/or architect? -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-05 0:54 ` Stephen Leake @ 2004-10-05 15:39 ` David Botton 2004-10-05 19:44 ` tmoran 2004-10-05 22:40 ` Stephen Leake 0 siblings, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: David Botton @ 2004-10-05 15:39 UTC (permalink / raw) I would join, but regardless of direction, I and others plan on continuing development of GWindows, GNATCOM and GNAVI (the Delphi like GUI builder I had started). I would suggest looking at the GMGPL CLAW page on AdaPower http://www.adapower.com/claw/ as there is some good materials for a CLAW based startup if you decide that direction, ie. * Very good examples of using CLAW (Moran) * An example of how to put an ActiveX control on to CLAW windows (Myself) The reason I plan on continuing (and perhaps you should consider before making a decision) is: * There is already a decent install base of GWindows including use in traditional and GPL'd apps (of course, I assume in terms of users, CLAW has a vastly larger base) * GWindows for the most part (but not all) is already a _superset_ of CLAW both in design and functionality * Where GMGPL CLAW has more functionality, the code can easily be integrated in to GWindows * GWindows ease of use for teaching GUI programming do to model and good specs * GWindows shows good Ada design while demonstrating how to be practical in design choices instead of Academic, ie. it is "real world" * GWindows ease of use for programming both very small and very large systems * GWindows integration of COM/DCOM/ActiveX/.NET using all Ada, no C/C++ or MFC code needed (as in ObjectAda or older GWindows releases) * GWindows integration of Database support * GWindows design for future integration in to a Delphi like environment * GWindows offers UNICODE API support out of the box making it a better choice for 64 Bit Windows, NT, 2000, XP and Longhorn - ie. the ANSI API (and thus CLAW, the thin Win32Ada binding, GWindows ANSI build, etc) should only be used where Win9X/ME is a must (and then one should offer both binaries). * GWindows can be used for windows CE programming as well if a cross compiler was available * GWindows has always been MGPL'd and as such has always been very much alive even if I was not :-) * I have and attachment to the FSF's GNU/GPL philosophy and practice and want to support such projects. (Despite being a Mr. Windows in the Ada world, All of my own work and the majority of programming I do is on Linux, Darwin and Mac OS X. GWindows was created to advocate Ada and GPL/MGPL _not_ Windows, somehow that point always gets lost in the sauce....) There are many more specific technical reasons on a feature by feature basis. There is a lot of work to bring CLAW to the point where GWindows is (I had always hoped on my long absences that in fact CLAW, the framework, would have been advanced as I have never looked or intended to harm financially those working on CLAW with my efforts, nor the feelings of any including yours Stephen despite Windex having also been MGPL'd, GWindows grew out of different needs). The areas not "bound" by GWindows on the other hand are few and easily added by any one familiar with Windows and Ada. The only reason I noticed for not supporting GWindows as the GNU Ada standard was my absences. I'd like to point out a few things: * Despite my personal absence there has been continued development of GWindows by others (although true, I haven't integrated them in to the base yet, but they are available) * There hasn't been much need of support and there has been some peer support from others on the GNAVI-List until it broke a few months ago (now fixed) * More than one set of GMGPL'd professional extensions has been made * The GMGPL Claw version has been around for some time now yet no one pushed to extend it, I expect that anything less than a full GMGPL version of CLAW will mean the same lethargic response * CLAW, the framework, hasn't really been updated/extended per se. (Note the web page is older than that of GWindows) that despite the availability of many of my tools and some examples that could have been used with out compromising lic.,etc. (as pointed out by others) to give CLAW additional support where GWindows was stronger. My 2 cents, you would be better off pushing forward with GWindows (as GWindows can't see why a name change, etc. is needed either, GWindows the (M)GPL'd//GNAT Windows binding for Ada). The code base is already there, it is MGPL'd, it has been proven in the real world, there are already people working to extend it, fix the few bugs it has had, etc. David Botton On 2004-10-04 20:54:39 -0400, Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@acm.org> said: > Would you be willing to join such a project, as a developer and/or > architect? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-05 15:39 ` David Botton @ 2004-10-05 19:44 ` tmoran 2004-10-05 21:33 ` David Botton 2004-10-05 22:40 ` Stephen Leake 1 sibling, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread From: tmoran @ 2004-10-05 19:44 UTC (permalink / raw) >* GWindows for the most part (but not all) is already a _superset_ of >CLAW both in design and functionality I know it's a political season and we're all used to ads stretching the truth, but this is ridiculous. GWindows is not a _superset_ of even the currently GMGPLed Introductory version of Claw, let alone the full version. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-05 19:44 ` tmoran @ 2004-10-05 21:33 ` David Botton 2004-10-05 22:13 ` stephane richard 2004-10-06 21:17 ` tmoran 0 siblings, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: David Botton @ 2004-10-05 21:33 UTC (permalink / raw) For a small list of differences see: http://www.adapower.com/gwindows/GWindowsVsClaw.html Although my point is, a superset of design and functionality, yes. There may be individual APIs here and there in areas where CLAW has more or GWindows has more, but the key is that GWindows is more than a binding while still being as close to the API as a binding with out losing ease of use and understandability. I would say that GWindows is to CLAW what Borland's VCL is to MFC. The only thing is that CLAW is far away from being as complete as MFC while GWindows is just about on par with VCL of at least Delphi 3. My point is that GWindows as an MGPL project from the start and as such was, is and will be alive regardless. In fact any work going in to a new project or versions of CLAW released as MGPL become good grounds for its growth. If CLAW becomes completely MGPL the same can be said about it as well in relationship to GWindows. The question is, is it worth: Creating yet another competing framework (I am sure that CLAW is not going to disappear either) Negotiating to get as much of CLAW in to the MPGL space as possible when RR may not be ready yet to support an alternative financial model Starting with CLAW and then having to go through the sources to recode for UNICODE support and other important features needed to support the advancement of windows beyond Windows 9X/ME Redoing the creation thread of CLAW for COM/DCOM/ActiveX/.NET etc. GWindows is a more sound place to start as a code base and CLAW certainly has very much what to add. As for the MGPL version of CLAW not being a subset, if any of the GWindows users needed what was there we would have incorporated it already (some may have in their own projects :-) I have seen a few loose APIs I may borrow from there in the future for the GWindows base, just haven't had a time or need yet. David Botton On 2004-10-05 15:44:33 -0400, tmoran@acm.org said: >> * GWindows for the most part (but not all) is already a _superset_ of >> CLAW both in design and functionality > I know it's a political season and we're all used to ads stretching the > truth, but this is ridiculous. GWindows is not a _superset_ of even the > currently GMGPLed Introductory version of Claw, let alone the full version. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-05 21:33 ` David Botton @ 2004-10-05 22:13 ` stephane richard 2004-10-06 21:17 ` tmoran 1 sibling, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: stephane richard @ 2004-10-05 22:13 UTC (permalink / raw) "David Botton" <david@botton.com> wrote in message news:2004100517335116807%david@bottoncom... > > I would say that GWindows is to CLAW what Borland's VCL is to MFC. > And this is why I said, in another thread, that CLAW and GWindows should co-exist. Because of the difference in minding of both. As you say if GWindows is VCL and CLAW is MFC then there's 2 very different types of users that will want to use either or both depending on their respective backgrounds :-). > The question is, is it worth: > > Creating yet another competing framework (I am sure that CLAW is not going > to disappear either) > Negotiating to get as much of CLAW in to the MPGL space as possible when > RR may not be ready yet to support an alternative financial model > Starting with CLAW and then having to go through the sources to recode for > UNICODE support and other important features needed to support the > advancement of windows beyond Windows 9X/ME > Redoing the creation thread of CLAW for COM/DCOM/ActiveX/.NET > etc. > Well although this would be a free software effort on both, competition between VCL and MFC is what made these two class hierarchies what they are today. I think it would be a good and healthy for both to be actively modified and altered in their own specific mindings. I'm not a peace keeper here....this is my humble opinion :-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-05 21:33 ` David Botton 2004-10-05 22:13 ` stephane richard @ 2004-10-06 21:17 ` tmoran 1 sibling, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: tmoran @ 2004-10-06 21:17 UTC (permalink / raw) > There may be individual APIs here and there in areas where CLAW has > more or GWindows has more, but the key is that GWindows is more than a > binding while still being as close to the API as a binding with out > losing ease of use and understandability. > [Claw binding] that is 1) friendly to Ada programmers, Several years ago I tried changing an existing text mode program to Claw Windows graphics, and a GtkAda program to Claw, as an ease of migration test. In both cases, IIRC, a single package body (dealing with the user interface) was substantially changed, with little or no changes to any specs or to the logic of the program. The programs were Michael Feldman's Dining Philosophers and Jeffrey Carter's Mine Detector. To see the code, or try the same experiment with other bindings, see www.adapower.com/os/windmine.html, and the Diners example in www.rrsoftware.com/html/prodinf/claw/clawinto.html ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-05 15:39 ` David Botton 2004-10-05 19:44 ` tmoran @ 2004-10-05 22:40 ` Stephen Leake 2004-10-05 23:28 ` Randy Brukardt 2004-10-06 3:46 ` David Botton 1 sibling, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2004-10-05 22:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: comp.lang.ada David Botton <david@botton.com> writes: > I would join, but regardless of direction, I and others plan on > continuing development of GWindows, GNATCOM and GNAVI (the Delphi like > GUI builder I had started). > > I would suggest looking at the GMGPL CLAW page on AdaPower > http://www.adapower.com/claw/ as there is some good materials for a > CLAW based startup if you decide that direction, ie. > * Very good examples of using CLAW (Moran) > * An example of how to put an ActiveX control on to CLAW > windows (Myself) There was a distinct feeling that the Ada community in general would benefit from going forward with only _one_ thick Windows binding, because that would enhance the level of support for that binding (both in terms of user experience and developers fixing problems and adding features). > * There is already a decent install base of GWindows including use in > traditional and GPL'd apps (of course, I assume in terms of users, > CLAW has a vastly larger base) Ok, so it makes more sense to proceed with CLAW as a base. > * GWindows for the most part (but not all) is already a _superset_ of > CLAW both in design and functionality Ok, so it won't be hard to merge GWindows into CLAW. Although I agree with Randy; "superset" is not a proper description here. > * Where GMGPL CLAW has more functionality, the code can easily be > integrated in to GWindows Or vice versa. > * GWindows ease of use for teaching GUI programming do to model and > good specs I don't get this impression from reading the code. I have not had much experience in teaching any Ada GUI system to users. But I understand the CLAW code more easily than the GWindows code, because the CLAW code has better comments. > * GWindows shows good Ada design while demonstrating how to be > practical in design choices instead of Academic, ie. it is "real > world" I think CLAW has a better design. But I guess that will always be a matter of opinion. > * GWindows ease of use for programming both very small and very > large systems I don't see that as much different for CLAW. Perhaps this is a case of "it's easier to program in a system I know". > * GWindows integration of COM/DCOM/ActiveX/.NET using all Ada, no > C/C++ or MFC code needed (as in ObjectAda or older GWindows > releases) That's _not_ GWindows, that's GNATCOM. As we have already established, CLAW can easily take advantage of that as well. Please be consistent in this discussion! > * GWindows integration of Database support That is a point. It looks easy to port to CLAW. > * GWindows design for future integration in to a Delphi like > environment It would be interesting to hear how CLAW lacks in this department. > * GWindows offers UNICODE API support out of the box making it a > better choice for 64 Bit Windows, NT, 2000, XP and Longhorn - ie. the > ANSI API (and thus CLAW, the thin Win32Ada binding, GWindows ANSI > build, etc) should only be used where Win9X/ME is a must (and then one > should offer both binaries). Hmm. I guess I haven't looked at the Unicode issue in CLAW. Clearly it could be added. > * GWindows can be used for windows CE programming as well if a cross > compiler was available What prevents CLAW from doing that? Although I don't rank this high on a list of requirements. > * GWindows has always been MGPL'd As CLAW is now (or will be soon, if we agree to start a community project with it). > and as such has always been very much alive even if I was not :-) Well, that's not true. That's exactly why this whole discussion got started; there was no active support for GWindows, and we were discussing the best way to start a support group. > * I have and attachment to the FSF's GNU/GPL philosophy and practice > and want to support such projects. (Despite being a Mr. Windows in the > Ada world, All of my own work and the majority of programming I do is > on Linux, Darwin and Mac OS X. GWindows was created to advocate Ada > and GPL/MGPL _not_ Windows, somehow that point always gets lost in the > sauce....) Me too, but I'm not sure how it applies here. Once CLAW becomes GMGPL, it meets the same philosophical goals. > The only reason I noticed for not supporting GWindows as the GNU Ada > standard was my absences. Actually, we are not talking about a GNU standard. I doubt the Gnu Project would be interested in anything tightly bound to Windows. We are talking about an Ada community standard. > I'd like to point out a few things: > > * Despite my personal absence there has been continued development of > GWindows by others (although true, I haven't integrated them in to the > base yet, but they are available) Yes. And those others started a discussion on the best way to move forward. Some agreed that a GMGPL'd CLAW was the best starting point. > * There hasn't been much need of support and there has been some peer > support from others on the GNAVI-List until it broke a few months ago > (now fixed) "need" is in the eye of the users. "need" was expressed here. > * More than one set of GMGPL'd professional extensions has been made I'm not clear how this is relevant. > * The GMGPL Claw version has been around for some time now yet no one > pushed to extend it, I expect that anything less than a full GMGPL > version of CLAW will mean the same lethargic response I personally didn't work with CLAW because it was not GMGPL. Making it GMGPL changes that. > * CLAW, the framework, hasn't really been updated/extended per se. How is this relevant? If it's good, it's good. > (Note the web page is older than that of GWindows) My Robin's Card's page is older than either. It still works, and is a good card game. What's the point? > that despite the availability of many of my tools and some examples > that could have been used with out compromising lic.,etc. (as > pointed out by others) to give CLAW additional support where > GWindows was stronger. There could be many reasons why your code was not added to CLAW; lack of customer demand, for one. Lack of clear title, for another; GMGPL is not enough when it comes to legal issues. You must also have clear ownership, proof that the GMGPL license actually applies. But this actually illustrates the point that it would be better for the Ada community if there is only one thick Windows binding. Then we wouldn't have useful code that is not being used. > My 2 cents, you would be better off pushing forward with GWindows > (as GWindows can't see why a name change, etc. is needed either, > GWindows the (M)GPL'd//GNAT Windows binding for Ada). CLAW has a goal of compiler independence; that's actually a point in its favor that I've forgotten to mention. -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-05 22:40 ` Stephen Leake @ 2004-10-05 23:28 ` Randy Brukardt 2004-10-06 3:50 ` David Botton 2004-10-06 3:46 ` David Botton 1 sibling, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread From: Randy Brukardt @ 2004-10-05 23:28 UTC (permalink / raw) "Stephen Leake" <stephen_leake@acm.org> wrote in message news:mailman.198.1097016057.390.comp.lang.ada@ada-france.org... One point: > > * GWindows offers UNICODE API support out of the box making it a > > better choice for 64 Bit Windows, NT, 2000, XP and Longhorn - ie. the > > ANSI API (and thus CLAW, the thin Win32Ada binding, GWindows ANSI > > build, etc) should only be used where Win9X/ME is a must (and then one > > should offer both binaries). > > Hmm. I guess I haven't looked at the Unicode issue in CLAW. Clearly it > could be added We originally intended to support "Wide_Claw" with the obvious semantics. But there was virtually no interest in it, so in the end we didn't bother to implement it. (One question I've always had was whether mixed programs actually worked; the Microsoft APIs appear to assume all one or all the other - which is easy to support in Claw or anything else for that matter.) Randy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-05 23:28 ` Randy Brukardt @ 2004-10-06 3:50 ` David Botton 0 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: David Botton @ 2004-10-06 3:50 UTC (permalink / raw) I think that the problem we all suffer from is not enough users (and in particular knowledgeable users) of any Ada framework :-) Anything that produces more of those is golden. DB > > But there was virtually no interest in it, so in the end we didn't bother to > implement it. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-05 22:40 ` Stephen Leake 2004-10-05 23:28 ` Randy Brukardt @ 2004-10-06 3:46 ` David Botton 1 sibling, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: David Botton @ 2004-10-06 3:46 UTC (permalink / raw) On 2004-10-05 18:40:36 -0400, Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@acm.org> said: >> * GWindows for the most part (but not all) is already a _superset_ of >> CLAW both in design and functionality > > Ok, so it won't be hard to merge GWindows into CLAW. > Although I agree with Randy; "superset" is not a proper description here. > >> * Where GMGPL CLAW has more functionality, the code can easily be >> integrated in to GWindows > > Or vice versa. Actually my point is that it is easier to integrate the subset, i.e. it is easier to port CLAW "bindings" in to the GWindows "framework" > >> * GWindows ease of use for teaching GUI programming do to model and >> good specs > > I don't get this impression from reading the code. I have not had much > experience in teaching any Ada GUI system to users. But I understand > the CLAW code more easily than the GWindows code, because the CLAW > code has better comments. CLAW is good code, I've never claimed else. I've also never heard complaints from lack of documentation in the specs, but certainly open to add more where needed. >> * GWindows shows good Ada design while demonstrating how to be >> practical in design choices instead of Academic, ie. it is "real >> world" > > I think CLAW has a better design. But I guess that will always be a > matter of opinion. Perhaps. We would have to compare on specific metrics to really make a fair statement. > > >> * GWindows integration of COM/DCOM/ActiveX/.NET using all Ada, no >> C/C++ or MFC code needed (as in ObjectAda or older GWindows >> releases) > > That's _not_ GWindows, that's GNATCOM. As we have already established, > CLAW can easily take advantage of that as well. Please be consistent > in this discussion! No, it is GWindows, what you are missing is that there needs to be support all the way around to do it right. That is why GWindows was created to start with (to be part of GNATCOM). > >> * GWindows integration of Database support > > That is a point. It looks easy to port to CLAW. It is. > >> * GWindows design for future integration in to a Delphi like >> environment > > It would be interesting to hear how CLAW lacks in this department. Its reliance on only an inheritance model, but everything can always be worked around, the question is how easily. > >> * GWindows offers UNICODE API support out of the box making it a >> better choice for 64 Bit Windows, NT, 2000, XP and Longhorn - ie. the >> ANSI API (and thus CLAW, the thin Win32Ada binding, GWindows ANSI >> build, etc) should only be used where Win9X/ME is a must (and then one >> should offer both binaries). > > Hmm. I guess I haven't looked at the Unicode issue in CLAW. Clearly it > could be added. There is a lot of work involved and there are other similar issues. > >> * GWindows can be used for windows CE programming as well if a cross >> compiler was available > > What prevents CLAW from doing that? Although I don't rank this high on > a list of requirements. UNICODE is the primary reason. > >> * GWindows has always been MGPL'd > > As CLAW is now (or will be soon, if we agree to start a community > project with it). CLAW is not currently, although a decent subset is. It is up to them, but I think they should make sure they have a solid financial model before going forward. > >> and as such has always been very much alive even if I was not :-) > > Well, that's not true. That's exactly why this whole discussion got > started; there was no active support for GWindows, and we were > discussing the best way to start a support group. The list was dead for a few months granted, but development didn't stop either. > >> * I have and attachment to the FSF's GNU/GPL philosophy and practice >> and want to support such projects. (Despite being a Mr. Windows in the >> Ada world, All of my own work and the majority of programming I do is >> on Linux, Darwin and Mac OS X. GWindows was created to advocate Ada >> and GPL/MGPL _not_ Windows, somehow that point always gets lost in the >> sauce....) > > Me too, but I'm not sure how it applies here. Once CLAW becomes > GMGPL, it meets the same philosophical goals. Time will tell. As I said GWindows is already doing it, GMGPL, new code being developed by different groups, etc. Given that there is not much that CLAW is going to add to what GWindows already is and that it is easier to port CLAW code to GWindows, seems smarter to push forward in that direction. When dealing with volunteer efforts the bottom line is what your heart desires. From my perspective community code under GMGPL is good regardless of what base you start with. In the end if it looks good and some one wants it as part of their project they will port it in. So I would support any effort to have more code written. >> * More than one set of GMGPL'd professional extensions has been made > > I'm not clear how this is relevant. ie. It is already happening even if there is not a lot of discussion about it publicly. > >> * The GMGPL Claw version has been around for some time now yet no one >> pushed to extend it, I expect that anything less than a full GMGPL >> version of CLAW will mean the same lethargic response > > I personally didn't work with CLAW because it was not GMGPL. Making it > GMGPL changes that. If it was GMGPL to start with I likely would have never written GWindows, but now that I have and the result is a solid open source framework that > >> that despite the availability of many of my tools and some examples >> that could have been used with out compromising lic.,etc. (as >> pointed out by others) to give CLAW additional support where >> GWindows was stronger. > > There could be many reasons why your code was not added to CLAW; lack > of customer demand, for one. Lack of clear title, for another; Clear title exists at this point to the code, but at some point that may change as GWindows garners more community involvement. > > CLAW has a goal of compiler independence; that's actually a point in its > favor that I've forgotten to mention. Not sure that matters so much these days, but I've seen ports of GNATCOM/GWindows to other compilers (at least one vendor even ships it AFAIK). David Botton ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <ullenfdo8.fsf@acm.org>]
* Re: GWindows and David Botton [not found] ` <ullenfdo8.fsf@acm.org> @ 2004-10-04 12:46 ` Stephen Leake 2004-10-04 23:13 ` Brian May 0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2004-10-04 12:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: comp.lang.ada Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@acm.org> writes: > David Botton <david@botton.com> writes: > > > On 2004-09-27 02:13:22 -0400, Fionn mac Cuimhaill > > <invisible@hiding.from.spam> said: > > > > > The very first step should be to establish a new home for GWindows. > > > > I would recommend just keeping it where it is and I'll offer FTP > > access to you and others. > > Hmm. Welcome back, David. > > I would prefer to join a project that has more robust support. Several > people tried to contact you about GWindows, and were unsuccessful. In addition, CVS (not just FTP) is necessary when several developers collaborate on a project. SourceForge also supports mailing lists and bug/task tracking, which are very useful. -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-04 12:46 ` Stephen Leake @ 2004-10-04 23:13 ` Brian May 2004-10-04 23:45 ` stephane richard 2004-10-05 0:48 ` Stephen Leake 0 siblings, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Brian May @ 2004-10-04 23:13 UTC (permalink / raw) >>>>> "Stephen" == Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@acm.org> writes: Stephen> In addition, CVS (not just FTP) is necessary when several Stephen> developers collaborate on a project. SourceForge also Stephen> supports mailing lists and bug/task tracking, which are Stephen> very useful. Why use CVS for new projects now? There are lots of alternatives to CVS which aren't as brain dead, e.g. bitkeeper, subversion, tla/arch, etc. My favourite is TLA/arch as * Like CVS, it is entirely open source. * allows for renaming/moving files/directories, while maintaining full history, without resorting to ugly hacks. * distributed repositories (meaning I can create my own repository, commit to it, and synchronise upstream changes, even if I don't have write access to the "official" server) * GPG signed repository updates (could be good especially important when writing critical software; makes it harder for intruders to tamper with the archive undetected). * TLA/arch will also work (read-only) over standard HTTP. It also works (read/write) over FTP, sftp (ssh), or webdav. * Other points I have forgotten, See <URL:http://www.gnu.org/software/gnu-arch/> and <URL:http://gnuarch.org/>. Then again, this is getting off topic for this thread and this newsgroup... However, I use it for all my Ada software ;-). -- Brian May <bam@snoopy.apana.org.au> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-04 23:13 ` Brian May @ 2004-10-04 23:45 ` stephane richard 2004-10-05 17:52 ` Ludovic Brenta 2004-10-05 0:48 ` Stephen Leake 1 sibling, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread From: stephane richard @ 2004-10-04 23:45 UTC (permalink / raw) "Brian May" <bam@snoopy.apana.org.au> wrote in message news:sa4d5zy3wmn.fsf@snoopy.apana.org.au... > Why use CVS for new projects now? There are lots of alternatives to > CVS which aren't as brain dead, e.g. bitkeeper, subversion, tla/arch, > etc. > Well if if a project is hosted on sourceforge, CVS is the way to go on that project server :-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-04 23:45 ` stephane richard @ 2004-10-05 17:52 ` Ludovic Brenta 2004-10-05 18:08 ` Chris Humphries 0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread From: Ludovic Brenta @ 2004-10-05 17:52 UTC (permalink / raw) Stéphane richard writes: > Brian May wrote: >> Why use CVS for new projects now? There are lots of alternatives to >> CVS which aren't as brain dead, e.g. bitkeeper, subversion, tla/arch, >> etc. > > Well if if a project is hosted on sourceforge, CVS is the way to go > on that project server :-) Then I would suggest meta-CVS. It is a CVS client that uses a regular CVS server for storage, but stores directory and filename information under version control, records merges, and solves most of the problems in CVS. Check it out here: http://users.footprints.net/~kaz/mcvs.html "System requirements: Meta-CVS runs on Linux, and on Windows under Cygwin." -- Ludovic Brenta. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-05 17:52 ` Ludovic Brenta @ 2004-10-05 18:08 ` Chris Humphries 2004-10-05 18:24 ` Ludovic Brenta 0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread From: Chris Humphries @ 2004-10-05 18:08 UTC (permalink / raw) Ludovic Brenta wrote: > Stéphane richard writes: > >>Brian May wrote: >> >>>Why use CVS for new projects now? There are lots of alternatives to >>>CVS which aren't as brain dead, e.g. bitkeeper, subversion, tla/arch, >>>etc. >> >>Well if if a project is hosted on sourceforge, CVS is the way to go >>on that project server :-) > > > Then I would suggest meta-CVS. It is a CVS client that uses a regular > CVS server for storage, but stores directory and filename information > under version control, records merges, and solves most of the problems > in CVS. > > Check it out here: http://users.footprints.net/~kaz/mcvs.html > > "System requirements: Meta-CVS runs on Linux, and on Windows under > Cygwin." > The value that sourceforge provides seems more important and useful than the actual revision control stuff. 1) sourceforge is not going anywhere 2) bug reporting 3) webhosting + file storage 4) project details and news 5) cvs 6) not operated by any single one person, but may be operated by many (with or without the original person that started it). 7) free the code revision etc stuff seems minor when there is sourceforge. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-05 18:08 ` Chris Humphries @ 2004-10-05 18:24 ` Ludovic Brenta 2004-10-05 19:07 ` Pascal Obry 2004-10-05 22:43 ` Stephen Leake 0 siblings, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Ludovic Brenta @ 2004-10-05 18:24 UTC (permalink / raw) Chris Humphries writes: > The value that sourceforge provides seems more important and useful > than the actual revision control stuff. > > 1) sourceforge is not going anywhere > 2) bug reporting > 3) webhosting + file storage > 4) project details and news > 5) cvs > 6) not operated by any single one person, but may be operated by > many (with or without the original person that started it). > 7) free > > the code revision etc stuff seems minor when there is sourceforge. Well, I have mixed feelings about this. Despite its known and annoying flaws, CVS was popular when SourceForge was established. SourceForge chose to support CVS for its simplicity. Now, the popularity of SourceForge makes CVS popular, but the deficiencies in CVS are still there. I cannot help but think that CVS is the "C" of revision control systems. Ada programmers deserve better than that :) With Meta-CVS, one can get the best of everything: the SourceForge CVS server and surrounding tools, without the annoying CVS deficiencies. At least, I think Meta-CVS is worth a look. -- Ludovic Brenta. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-05 18:24 ` Ludovic Brenta @ 2004-10-05 19:07 ` Pascal Obry 2004-10-05 22:43 ` Stephen Leake 1 sibling, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Pascal Obry @ 2004-10-05 19:07 UTC (permalink / raw) Ludovic Brenta <ludovic.brenta@insalien.org> writes: > Well, I have mixed feelings about this. Despite its known and > annoying flaws, CVS was popular when SourceForge was established. > SourceForge chose to support CVS for its simplicity. Now, the > popularity of SourceForge makes CVS popular, but the deficiencies in > CVS are still there. That's wrong! CVS has always been very popular AFAIK. It has superceded RCS and SCCS long time ago. I agree that CVS is not the best version control system around but it is quite good, and it is good enough for some very large projects ! Pascal. -- --|------------------------------------------------------ --| Pascal Obry Team-Ada Member --| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE --|------------------------------------------------------ --| http://www.obry.org --| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination" --| --| gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.pgp.net --recv-key C1082595 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-05 18:24 ` Ludovic Brenta 2004-10-05 19:07 ` Pascal Obry @ 2004-10-05 22:43 ` Stephen Leake 2004-10-07 18:49 ` Ludovic Brenta 2004-10-19 2:48 ` Kaz Kylheku 1 sibling, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2004-10-05 22:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: comp.lang.ada Ludovic Brenta <ludovic.brenta@insalien.org> writes: > I cannot help but think that CVS is the "C" of revision control > systems. Ada programmers deserve better than that :) I hadn't thought of it quite that way :). > With Meta-CVS, one can get the best of everything: the SourceForge > CVS server and surrounding tools, without the annoying CVS > deficiencies. > > At least, I think Meta-CVS is worth a look. If Meta-CVS is a purely client tool, then each developer can use it or not; it doesn't have to be a project-wide choice. I already use CVS for _everything_. While in general I'm in favor of learning new tools, in this case I'm sticking with CVS. -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-05 22:43 ` Stephen Leake @ 2004-10-07 18:49 ` Ludovic Brenta 2004-10-16 2:36 ` Benjamin Ketcham 2004-10-19 2:48 ` Kaz Kylheku 1 sibling, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread From: Ludovic Brenta @ 2004-10-07 18:49 UTC (permalink / raw) Stephen Leake writes: > If Meta-CVS is a purely client tool, then each developer can use it > or not; it doesn't have to be a project-wide choice. Yes, it has to be project-wide. The way Meta-CVS works is this: - every file in your source tree gets a unique ID - every file is stored in the root directory of the module in the CVS server under that ID - a separate text file establishes the mapping between the unique IDs and the path name of each file - when you do a "mcvs checkout module", it creates a directory module/MCVS under which the flat directory structure is checked out, then it recreates the tree using the metadata file. It uses hard links if the filesystem allows that, copies otherwise. So, using Meta-CVS instead of CVS changes the file structure of the server. For example: /var/lib/cvs/my_project: -r--r--r-- 1 lbrenta src 2811 2003-08-23 20:17 F-FFA4733D2CD1E8D430F20908D38BE0DE.ads,v -r--r--r-- 1 lbrenta src 12137 2003-08-23 20:17 F-FFAE5C4ABA0AF1F53C01902609AC2355.ads,v -r--r--r-- 1 lbrenta src 41326 2003-08-31 19:48 F-FFE3C9276E16694199815F68FAF5B7C0.adb,v -r--r--r-- 1 lbrenta src 3846 2003-08-31 19:48 F-FFFE9E8E3AEE3959A23BBE6EAEE0672A.adb,v -r--r--r-- 1 lbrenta src 6135 2003-08-31 19:48 F-FFFF334EDA1C38D47B5FB63CC0CDD729.adb,v -r--r--r-- 1 lbrenta src 366052 2003-08-31 19:48 MAP,v -r--r--r-- 1 lbrenta src 3300 2003-08-31 19:48 TYPES,v You can of course use the regular CVS client, but it's not exactly user-friendly :) -- Ludovic Brenta. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-07 18:49 ` Ludovic Brenta @ 2004-10-16 2:36 ` Benjamin Ketcham 0 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Benjamin Ketcham @ 2004-10-16 2:36 UTC (permalink / raw) Ludovic Brenta <ludovic.brenta@insalien.org> wrote: > Stephen Leake writes: >> If Meta-CVS is a purely client tool, then each developer can use it >> or not; it doesn't have to be a project-wide choice. > > Yes, it has to be project-wide. The way Meta-CVS works is this: Oh goody, more layers. Shouldn't it really be called "Meta-Meta-RCS"? > - every file in your source tree gets a unique ID > > - every file is stored in the root directory of the module in the CVS > server under that ID > > - a separate text file establishes the mapping between the unique IDs > and the path name of each file [...] Seems eerily reminiscent of Win32 "long filenames".... Don't get me wrong, I think CVS is a half-baked hack with some amazing oversights and omissions. (And is the documentation situation still as frustrating?) Still, it's the de facto standard half-baked hack, and by now all the build-managers have written their own personal versions of the scripts necessary to automate the common operations that CVS overlooks or makes needlessly tedious/counterintuitive. This "Meta-CVS" would seem much more appealing if it *were* purely client-side; has anyone attempted CVS improvements that way (I mean more than just GUI front ends)? --Benjamin ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-05 22:43 ` Stephen Leake 2004-10-07 18:49 ` Ludovic Brenta @ 2004-10-19 2:48 ` Kaz Kylheku 1 sibling, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Kaz Kylheku @ 2004-10-19 2:48 UTC (permalink / raw) Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@acm.org> wrote in message news:<mailman.199.1097016199.390.comp.lang.ada@ada-france.org>... > Ludovic Brenta <ludovic.brenta@insalien.org> writes: > > > I cannot help but think that CVS is the "C" of revision control > > systems. Ada programmers deserve better than that :) > > I hadn't thought of it quite that way :). > > > With Meta-CVS, one can get the best of everything: the SourceForge > > CVS server and surrounding tools, without the annoying CVS > > deficiencies. > > > > At least, I think Meta-CVS is worth a look. > > If Meta-CVS is a purely client tool, then each developer can use it or > not; it doesn't have to be a project-wide choice. Such a tool can't do the things that Meta-CVS can do. People have played around with scripts to do things like simulate renaming over standard CVS projects that can be fully checked out with a regular client. In the Meta-CVS project, I did not want to aim the guns that low into the ground, but rather elevate the muzzle above the horizon. I just wanted to reuse all of the behaviors that CVS does reasonably well: namely keeping a vector of text documents synchronized between a remote repository and a local sandbox, with support for parallel editing, branching and merging. In order for an element of this vector to retain its identity, while changing its name and position within the filesystem tree, it is necessary to represent that name and position as a separate property. The name, as known to CVS, then just becomes an abstract identifier, which might as well be based on some 128 bit number or something like that. The question is where to store the name? The simplest answer is to store it in some other file which can also be versioned, and subject to branching and merging. This way, when you check out the database, all you have to do is parse this file, and arrange the rest of the documents into a tree, which can be done using efficient hard-linking operations, rather than bulk transfer of data. In fact, what Meta-CVS does is keep a farm of hard links so that it has the original vector as checked out by CVS. CVS checkouts and updates take place in this farm area. A restructuring algorithm reshapes the tree by looking at the differences between the current structure and the newly desired version. A simple synchronization algorithm repairs any broken hard links between the tree and farm. > I already use CVS for _everything_. While in general I'm in favor of > learning new tools, in this case I'm sticking with CVS. Meta-CVS is my way of expressing essentially the same attitude: I'm sticking with CVS! Only I'm going to make it jump through hoops that over years of CVS mailing list discussions declared impossible, that's all. ;) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-04 23:13 ` Brian May 2004-10-04 23:45 ` stephane richard @ 2004-10-05 0:48 ` Stephen Leake 2004-10-05 7:42 ` Brian May 2004-10-06 20:08 ` Samuel Tardieu 1 sibling, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2004-10-05 0:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: comp.lang.ada Brian May <bam@snoopy.apana.org.au> writes: > >>>>> "Stephen" == Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@acm.org> writes: > > Stephen> In addition, CVS (not just FTP) is necessary when several > Stephen> developers collaborate on a project. SourceForge also > Stephen> supports mailing lists and bug/task tracking, which are > Stephen> very useful. > > Why use CVS for new projects now? Because that's what SourceForge supports. We need a server that won't go away, that many independent developers can use. CVS may be old, but it does the job well enough. > There are lots of alternatives to CVS which aren't as brain dead, > e.g. bitkeeper, subversion, tla/arch, etc. > > My favourite is TLA/arch as Is there an available, robustly supported server that provides TLA/arch access, like SourceForge does for CVS? > * allows for renaming/moving files/directories, while maintaining full > history, without resorting to ugly hacks. That would be nice. > * distributed repositories (meaning I can create my own repository, > commit to it, and synchronise upstream changes, even if I don't have > write access to the "official" server) That's also nice, if it works well. > * GPG signed repository updates (could be good especially important > when writing critical software; makes it harder for intruders to > tamper with the archive undetected). I'm not sure that's much better than ssh access. > Then again, this is getting off topic for this thread Not really; we do need to pick a server. > and this newsgroup... However, I use it for all my Ada software ;-). Ok, that's a good recommendation. -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-05 0:48 ` Stephen Leake @ 2004-10-05 7:42 ` Brian May 2004-10-05 22:16 ` Stephen Leake 2004-10-06 20:08 ` Samuel Tardieu 1 sibling, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread From: Brian May @ 2004-10-05 7:42 UTC (permalink / raw) >>>>> "Stephen" == Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@acm.org> writes: Stephen> Because that's what SourceForge supports. We need a Stephen> server that won't go away, that many independent Stephen> developers can use. Any site that allows HTTP access will work with TLA, although in read-only access. Any site that allows sftp access will work with TLA, not sure if sourceforge does or not. Stephen> CVS may be old, but it does the job well enough. It is also the most popular. Stephen> Is there an available, robustly supported server that provides Stephen> TLA/arch access, like SourceForge does for CVS? Yes, there are. For example there is http://alioth.debian.org/, run by Debian, see http://arch.debian.org/ for details. I believe alioth also supports subversion. There are others available, I can't think of them off-hand. >> * allows for renaming/moving files/directories, while maintaining full >> history, without resorting to ugly hacks. Stephen> That would be nice. Yes, definitely. It means you can commit your project straight away, even though you may plan to completely redesign the file system layout. There are several ways this can be done, one way is to insert a special tag into every file. This means to move a file, you just move it. TLA will pick it up automatically. Some people don't like this approach, so other methods are available. I use the explicit method, which means every file has a separate .id file, in the .arch-ids directory, which contains a unique identifier for the file. If you move a file, you move its id at the same time (I use Unix aliases to help me with this), so tla knows what has happened. >> * distributed repositories (meaning I can create my own repository, >> commit to it, and synchronise upstream changes, even if I don't have >> write access to the "official" server) Stephen> That's also nice, if it works well. Its a future I haven't used extensively, but on the rare occasion I do use it, it works pretty well. >> * GPG signed repository updates (could be good especially important >> when writing critical software; makes it harder for intruders to >> tamper with the archive undetected). Stephen> I'm not sure that's much better than ssh access. ssh solves a different problem; ssh is transport layer, this is when it is stored on disk. So, when committing a changeset, I sign the changeset too. Now if somebody managed to get write access to the repository, and changed it to make it look like I inserted malicious code, the signature would no longer match, and it would be clear the archive is corrupt. >> and this newsgroup... However, I use it for all my Ada software ;-). Stephen> Ok, that's a good recommendation. ;-) To be fair, it does have some disadvantages: * It requires a new mind set, and old CVS concepts have to be forgotten and relearnt. * It was built by a developer who hates Windows. As such, Windows support is still not official. There are unofficial versions versions for Windows, some people have complained of poor performance and other issues. For example, Unix supports a repository with two files "README" and "readme", but if you try to use this repository on windows, you will get unpredictable results, as Windows is case-insensitive. However, I have used the cygwin version, it seems to work fine, at least for my small projects. A native windows version is also available. * The lead developer likes command line tools, e.g. patch, reject files, etc. Some people may not like the absence of a GUI interface. Dealing with rejects by looking at a reject file from patch takes a bit of getting use to (the developers have good reasons for doing it this way, they say it makes it easier to manage conflicts this way). * Some commands are low level compared with other source code revision systems. There is no "annotate" command for example (although you can get it with add on software). There is no single command to compare two arbitrary versions (although comparing the current checked out version with the same version in the repository is easy; Also finding a list of change-sets that aren't in your checked out version is easy). I think all of these issues are being worked on, I am not exactly keeping up-to-date with the latest developments (due to time constraints). I could imagine some of these points might be show stoppers for some people, it depends on the developers who will be using it, and what it is for, I guess. Then there is also subversion. I realize the arch developers dislike subversion, saying some of the design decisions are really bad, doesn't support distributed repositories, archive format is ugly, etc, but it does work well for a number of projects, and doesn't have some of the limitations mentioned above. Somebody once made the analogy that subversion like a newer version of CVS, TLA is a complete rewrite from scratch. -- Brian May <bam@snoopy.apana.org.au> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-05 7:42 ` Brian May @ 2004-10-05 22:16 ` Stephen Leake 2004-10-06 8:48 ` Pascal Obry 2004-10-08 0:28 ` Brian May 0 siblings, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2004-10-05 22:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: comp.lang.ada Brian May <bam@snoopy.apana.org.au> writes: > >>>>> "Stephen" == Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@acm.org> writes: > > Stephen> Because that's what SourceForge supports. We need a > Stephen> server that won't go away, that many independent > Stephen> developers can use. > > Any site that allows HTTP access will work with TLA, although in > read-only access. > > Any site that allows sftp access will work with TLA, not sure if > sourceforge does or not. The question is whether the SourceForge servers are running the TLA server software (I assume there is a server executable?). As far as I know, they are not. Nor does the typical user (that's us) have the permission to run new code on the servers. > Stephen> Is there an available, robustly supported server that provides > Stephen> TLA/arch access, like SourceForge does for CVS? > > Yes, there are. For example there is http://alioth.debian.org/, run by > Debian, see http://arch.debian.org/ for details. I believe alioth also > supports subversion. There are others available, I can't think of them > off-hand. Hmm. It seems somehow "wrong" to host a Windows project on a Debian server :). Do you have any insight into the reliability of alioth? I know Debian in general strives for reliability over wizzyness. But it is an all-volunteer organization. So for our purposes, I think SourceForge is a better choice. > >> * GPG signed repository updates (could be good especially important > >> when writing critical software; makes it harder for intruders to > >> tamper with the archive undetected). > > Stephen> I'm not sure that's much better than ssh access. > > ssh solves a different problem; ssh is transport layer, this is when > it is stored on disk. > > So, when committing a changeset, I sign the changeset too. Now if > somebody managed to get write access to the repository, and changed it > to make it look like I inserted malicious code, the signature would no > longer match, and it would be clear the archive is corrupt. Ok, that would be useful in some situations. But I'm not too worried about that sort of thing. > To be fair, it does have some disadvantages: > > * It requires a new mind set, and old CVS concepts have to be > forgotten and relearnt. Hey, we want people to learn new concepts (Ada vs C, etc); that's a plus :). > * It was built by a developer who hates Windows. As such, Windows > support is still not official. That's obviously a killer for an explicitly Windows-only project. > * The lead developer likes command line tools, e.g. patch, reject > files, etc. Some people may not like the absence of a GUI > interface. I need an Emacs interface. As in I won't use it without one. > Dealing with rejects by looking at a reject file from patch takes > a bit of getting use to (the developers have good reasons for > doing it this way, they say it makes it easier to manage conflicts > this way). Have they ever seen Emacs pcvs? That's far and away the best user interface to a CM tool I've ever seen. > * Some commands are low level compared with other source code > revision systems. There is no "annotate" command for example > (although you can get it with add on software). There is no single > command to compare two arbitrary versions (although comparing the > current checked out version with the same version in the repository > is easy; Also finding a list of change-sets that aren't in your > checked out version is easy). That's what the Emacs interface is for; you build user-friendly front-end commands on top of the command line primitives. -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-05 22:16 ` Stephen Leake @ 2004-10-06 8:48 ` Pascal Obry 2004-10-06 18:56 ` Marius Amado Alves 2004-10-07 0:22 ` Stephen Leake 2004-10-08 0:28 ` Brian May 1 sibling, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Pascal Obry @ 2004-10-06 8:48 UTC (permalink / raw) Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@acm.org> writes: > Have they ever seen Emacs pcvs? That's far and away the best user > interface to a CM tool I've ever seen. pcvs, is that also called PCL-CVS ? If so I agree this is the best interface I have seen. Pascal. -- --|------------------------------------------------------ --| Pascal Obry Team-Ada Member --| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE --|------------------------------------------------------ --| http://www.obry.org --| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination" --| --| gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.pgp.net --recv-key C1082595 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-06 8:48 ` Pascal Obry @ 2004-10-06 18:56 ` Marius Amado Alves 2004-10-06 20:07 ` David Botton 2004-10-09 9:49 ` Jerry van Dijk 2004-10-07 0:22 ` Stephen Leake 1 sibling, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Marius Amado Alves @ 2004-10-06 18:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: comp.lang.ada An update of our little table incorporating the latest contributions. I have also put it in the Universal Casbah wiki at http://www.liacc.up.pt/~maa / Casbah / Miscellany / GUIs_For_Ada or http://www.liacc.up.pt/~maa/cgi-bin/casbah/casbah.cgi?operation=view&pagename=GUIs_For_Ada so that contributions can go there directly. GUI/Windows products for Ada comparate (C) Guys de Cla Product Binding License OSes Install Support Remarks ------------------------------------------------------------------- AdaBindX C/Lesstif GMGPL B,L (d) (b) IntroClaw C/Win32 GMGPL W easy free (f) FullClaw C/Win32 prop W easy com (f) Glade GTK+ GPL B,L,? (d) (a) GtkAda C/GTK+ GMGPL B,L,M,S,W (d) com GWindows C/Win32 GMGPL W JEWL Win32 free W easy RAPID (c) TASH Tcl/Tk GMGPL B,W,L (e) Windex Win32 GMGPL W free Win32 C/Win32 free W ------------------------------------------------------------------- (a) visual GUI builder and code generator (gate) for GtkAda (b) binding to Xlib, Xt, and Xm (motif/lesstif) (c) visual GUI builder (d) Debian package (e) Debian package no longer updated (f) visual GUI builder available Binding: Underlying programming language / library. License: prop=proprietary OSes: B = BSD L = Linux M = MacOS S = Solaris W = Windows Install: easy = installs out of the box hard = requires a guru Support: free = dedicated volunteer structure e.g. a maillist (not CLA) com = commercial support no = no support (but of course CLA continues to exist) Append "/doc" if documentation exists (free) * Threads in comp.lang.ada * GTK GWindows and David Botton * URLs * RAPID ftp://sunsite.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/pub/mirror/ftp.usafa.af.mil/pub/dfcs/ carlisle/usafa/rapid/index.html ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-06 18:56 ` Marius Amado Alves @ 2004-10-06 20:07 ` David Botton 2004-10-06 20:18 ` David Botton 2004-10-09 9:49 ` Jerry van Dijk 1 sibling, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread From: David Botton @ 2004-10-06 20:07 UTC (permalink / raw) I modified the Wiki reflecting that GWindows has "free" support, ie gnavi-list@gnavi.org (I'll be offline until Sunday, but I am not disappearing :-) David Botton On 2004-10-06 14:56:55 -0400, Marius Amado Alves <amado.alves@netcabo.pt> said: > An update of our little table incorporating the latest contributions. I > have also put it in the Universal Casbah wiki at > > http://www.liacc.up.pt/~maa / Casbah / Miscellany / GUIs_For_Ada > > or > > http://www.liacc.up.pt/~maa/cgi-bin/casbah/casbah.cgi?operation=view&pagename=GUIs_For_Ada so > > > so that contributions can go there directly. > > GUI/Windows products for Ada comparate > (C) Guys de Cla > > Product Binding License OSes Install Support Remarks > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > AdaBindX C/Lesstif GMGPL B,L (d) (b) > IntroClaw C/Win32 GMGPL W easy free (f) > FullClaw C/Win32 prop W easy com (f) > Glade GTK+ GPL B,L,? (d) (a) > GtkAda C/GTK+ GMGPL B,L,M,S,W (d) com > GWindows C/Win32 GMGPL W > JEWL Win32 free W easy > RAPID (c) > TASH Tcl/Tk GMGPL B,W,L (e) > Windex Win32 GMGPL W free > Win32 C/Win32 free W > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > (a) visual GUI builder and code generator (gate) for GtkAda > (b) binding to Xlib, Xt, and Xm (motif/lesstif) > (c) visual GUI builder > (d) Debian package > (e) Debian package no longer updated > (f) visual GUI builder available > > Binding: > Underlying programming language / library. > > License: > prop=proprietary > > OSes: > B = BSD > L = Linux > M = MacOS > S = Solaris > W = Windows > > Install: > easy = installs out of the box > hard = requires a guru > > Support: > free = dedicated volunteer structure e.g. a maillist (not CLA) > com = commercial support > no = no support (but of course CLA continues to exist) > Append "/doc" if documentation exists (free) > > * Threads in comp.lang.ada * > > GTK > GWindows and David Botton > > * URLs * > > RAPID > ftp://sunsite.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/pub/mirror/ftp.usafa.af.mil/pub/dfcs/ > > carlisle/usafa/rapid/index.html ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-06 20:07 ` David Botton @ 2004-10-06 20:18 ` David Botton 2004-10-06 21:25 ` tmoran 0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread From: David Botton @ 2004-10-06 20:18 UTC (permalink / raw) I also modified GWindows to Win32 not C/Win32. GWindows binds directly to the DLLs, COM Objects, etc. using Ada, no C in GWindows at all, not even for Active X controls. David Botton On 2004-10-06 16:07:20 -0400, David Botton <david@botton.com> said: > I modified the Wiki reflecting that GWindows has "free" support, ie > gnavi-list@gnavi.org > > (I'll be offline until Sunday, but I am not disappearing :-) > > David Botton > > > On 2004-10-06 14:56:55 -0400, Marius Amado Alves <amado.alves@netcabo.pt> said: > >> An update of our little table incorporating the latest contributions. I >> have also put it in the Universal Casbah wiki at >> >> http://www.liacc.up.pt/~maa / Casbah / Miscellany / GUIs_For_Ada >> >> or >> >> http://www.liacc.up.pt/~maa/cgi-bin/casbah/casbah.cgi?operation=view&pagename=GUIs_For_Ada so so >> > > so >> >> >> so that contributions can go there directly. >> >> GUI/Windows products for Ada comparate >> (C) Guys de Cla >> >> Product Binding License OSes Install Support Remarks >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> AdaBindX C/Lesstif GMGPL B,L (d) (b) >> IntroClaw C/Win32 GMGPL W easy free (f) >> FullClaw C/Win32 prop W easy com (f) >> Glade GTK+ GPL B,L,? (d) (a) >> GtkAda C/GTK+ GMGPL B,L,M,S,W (d) com >> GWindows C/Win32 GMGPL W >> JEWL Win32 free W easy >> RAPID (c) >> TASH Tcl/Tk GMGPL B,W,L (e) >> Windex Win32 GMGPL W free >> Win32 C/Win32 free W >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> (a) visual GUI builder and code generator (gate) for GtkAda >> (b) binding to Xlib, Xt, and Xm (motif/lesstif) >> (c) visual GUI builder >> (d) Debian package >> (e) Debian package no longer updated >> (f) visual GUI builder available >> >> Binding: >> Underlying programming language / library. >> >> License: >> prop=proprietary >> >> OSes: >> B = BSD >> L = Linux >> M = MacOS >> S = Solaris >> W = Windows >> >> Install: >> easy = installs out of the box >> hard = requires a guru >> >> Support: >> free = dedicated volunteer structure e.g. a maillist (not CLA) >> com = commercial support >> no = no support (but of course CLA continues to exist) >> Append "/doc" if documentation exists (free) >> >> * Threads in comp.lang.ada * >> >> GTK >> GWindows and David Botton >> >> * URLs * >> >> RAPID >> ftp://sunsite.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/pub/mirror/ftp.usafa.af.mil/pub/dfcs/ >> >> carlisle/usafa/rapid/index.html ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-06 20:18 ` David Botton @ 2004-10-06 21:25 ` tmoran 0 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: tmoran @ 2004-10-06 21:25 UTC (permalink / raw) > I also modified GWindows to Win32 not C/Win32. GWindows binds directly > to the DLLs, COM Objects, etc. using Ada, no C in GWindows at all, not > even for Active X controls. Similarly for Claw, which has never had any C at all. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-06 18:56 ` Marius Amado Alves 2004-10-06 20:07 ` David Botton @ 2004-10-09 9:49 ` Jerry van Dijk 1 sibling, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Jerry van Dijk @ 2004-10-09 9:49 UTC (permalink / raw) Marius Amado Alves <amado.alves@netcabo.pt> writes: > Product Binding License OSes Install Support Remarks > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > RAPID TASH GPL Windows Medium None (c) (x)(y) (x) Generated UI code is not OS specific (y) Generates code for TASH (tcl/tk), JGNAT (GNAT for Java), GtkAda or A# (GNAT for .net) -- -- Jerry van Dijk -- Leiden, Holland -- -- 'Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire.' -- Gustav Mahler (1860-1911) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-06 8:48 ` Pascal Obry 2004-10-06 18:56 ` Marius Amado Alves @ 2004-10-07 0:22 ` Stephen Leake 1 sibling, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2004-10-07 0:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: comp.lang.ada Pascal Obry <pascal@obry.org> writes: > Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@acm.org> writes: > > > Have they ever seen Emacs pcvs? That's far and away the best user > > interface to a CM tool I've ever seen. > > pcvs, is that also called PCL-CVS ? yes. > If so I agree this is the best interface I have seen. Another point in common :). -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-05 22:16 ` Stephen Leake 2004-10-06 8:48 ` Pascal Obry @ 2004-10-08 0:28 ` Brian May 1 sibling, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Brian May @ 2004-10-08 0:28 UTC (permalink / raw) >>>>> "Stephen" == Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@acm.org> writes: It sounds like Samuel Tardieu <sam@rfc1149.net> as more experience then me at using TLA in large posts, so read his posts too. Some of my thinking may still be CVS orientated, as most projects I use it there is only one contributor (currently). Stephen> The question is whether the SourceForge servers are Stephen> running the TLA server software (I assume there is a Stephen> server executable?). As far as I know, they are not. Nor Stephen> does the typical user (that's us) have the permission to Stephen> run new code on the servers. There is no such thing as a "TLA server" as such. Instead it uses whatever server you currently have, e.g. apache, sftp, etc. All TLA needs is commands to retrieve given files, the client does the rest of the work. For better support directory listed support is also required, but there is an easy method to work around this for HTTP, by putting the directory list into a downloadable file. TLA, unlike CVS, doesn't require write access to the server, this eliminates many security bugs with CVS in one go (last I heard anonymous read-only CVS access has considered extremely insecure, as CVS was never designed for anonymous access). This means, to use TLA on sourceforge, all you need to do is dedicate part of the sourceforge website for TLA, and mirror an official repository onto a dedicated location on the sourceforge website. Other alternatives may include using sftp to a read/write location on sourceforge, or using <URL:http://alioth.debian.org/> (which is Debian's version of sourceforge; I believe it has similar features but also supports subversion and TLA). Stephen> Hmm. It seems somehow "wrong" to host a Windows project Stephen> on a Debian server :). Nonsense. There is a special section for Microsoft products. AFAIK, The only requirement is that the project must be open source. Stephen> Do you have any insight into the reliability of alioth? I Stephen> know Debian in general strives for reliability over Stephen> wizzyness. But it is an all-volunteer organization. So Stephen> for our purposes, I think SourceForge is a better choice. I can't really vouch for the reliability. I haven't heard of any major issues for a long time now. It is easy to make copies of TLA archives though, so if you a worried about reliability in terms of "I might loose my work", keeping a backup on another server may be a good idea (regardless of what server or source code revision system you use). Stephen> Ok, that would be useful in some situations. But I'm not Stephen> too worried about that sort of thing. It seems like you should be. If somebody breaks into the sourceforge server for instance, it is impossible to know what malicious damage they may have done to what projects. You have to check each and every line of source code in every repository. Even then, you need warning that somebody broke in. It was be nice if this wasn't an issue, unfortunately it is a real problem. In my previous posts, I completely forgot to mention a major advantage - changesets. With CVS, when you check in a set of changes to multiple files, the change to each file is considered separate. That means, while in the middle of committing a large set of changes, somebody can do an update and get a broken version. It also makes it harder to undo specific changes, you need to work out all related files, and the related versions first. With TLA, each change is called a "changeset". A changeset can incorporate changes (including file renames,deletions,additions) to a set of files. This makes it easier to identify everything a developer did in order to make a change. It is also a strict atomic unit, you either get none of the changeset, or all of it. Obviously, there is also a related learning curve here. To use this to its maximum potential, it isn't a good idea to make numerous unrelated changes, and commit them all at once. Instead you make "one distinct" change at a time, and commit it. There are techniques to learn in case you start making major changes, and find that there is an unrelated bug you have to fix first. Also, knowing what a "distinct" change means is a matter of personal judgement and experience. >> * It requires a new mind set, and old CVS concepts have to be >> forgotten and relearnt. Stephen> Hey, we want people to learn new concepts (Ada vs C, Stephen> etc); that's a plus :). Agreed ;-). >> * It was built by a developer who hates Windows. As such, >> Windows support is still not official. Stephen> That's obviously a killer for an explicitly Windows-only Stephen> project. Yes. Although may want to talk to the developers of the Windows ports before deciding based on this point. >> * The lead developer likes command line tools, e.g. patch, >> reject files, etc. Some people may not like the absence of a >> GUI interface. Stephen> I need an Emacs interface. As in I won't use it without Stephen> one. IIRC, the lead developer (Tom Lord) uses emacs. I would be surprised if this hasn't been considered in detail... The only emacs feature I use, is its built in ability to handy reject files. (I am a vim fan <grin>). Stephen> Have they ever seen Emacs pcvs? That's far and away the Stephen> best user interface to a CM tool I've ever seen. There seem to be a list of emacs interfaces at <URL:http://wiki.gnuarch.org/moin.cgi/Additional_20Tools>, under the "Emacs interfaces" section. Some look like they could be very good. Sorry, I haven't used any. >> * Some commands are low level compared with other source code >> revision systems. There is no "annotate" command for example >> (although you can get it with add on software). There is no >> single command to compare two arbitrary versions (although >> comparing the current checked out version with the same version >> in the repository is easy; Also finding a list of change-sets >> that aren't in your checked out version is easy). Stephen> That's what the Emacs interface is for; you build Stephen> user-friendly front-end commands on top of the command Stephen> line primitives. That probably largely explains the philosophy of the lead developer (also an Emacs/LISP fan). -- Brian May <bam@snoopy.apana.org.au> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-05 0:48 ` Stephen Leake 2004-10-05 7:42 ` Brian May @ 2004-10-06 20:08 ` Samuel Tardieu 2004-10-08 0:36 ` Brian May 1 sibling, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread From: Samuel Tardieu @ 2004-10-06 20:08 UTC (permalink / raw) >>>>> "Stephen" == Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@acm.org> writes: Stephen> Is there an available, robustly supported server that Stephen> provides TLA/arch access, like SourceForge does for CVS? This is not the way GNU Arch is usually works. In a GNU Arch world, someone (A) sets up a repository that he can write and others can read (on its home ADSL connection for example). He commits in it, possibly using branches, since they are very easy to setup. When another developer (B) wants to participate, he branches off (A) repository, as branches are cross-repository. He makes its changes, commits into his own publicly visible but private repository, possibly with branches too. When his changes are ready and committed, (A) can then merge the changes from (B) repository. Of course, in the meantime, (B) may have merged some new changes from (A), but GNU Arch takes care of all that and remembers what has been merged in a repository. What if (A) machine gets off the net? No problem: (B) can work on its own, branching made a copy of (A) repository at the branch point. If (C) wants to experiment with the project, he can do the same thing, pull a version from (A), import some changes from (B) and add some of his own in his own private publicly-visible repository. Then (A) and (B) will both be able to pull (C) changes if they wish, GNU Arch being able to sort out how to merge all that, as it knows about the versions that have been merged at any time (this information is present in every repository). The way you use it is that you have a main integrator which is in charge of the official release for the project. Everyone can work by branching the official version and updating regularly from here. The integrator pulls changes from workers' repository at will, test them and adds them in the official repository. If one part of the project requires special expertise, an expert can setup his branch in his own private publicly-visible repository, and take care of integrating changes concerning this area. The official maintainer would then blindly merge changes from the expert. This is *very* scalable. The learning curve is quite important, but once you get used to it, you get a productivity never encountered with tools like CVS, Subversion, PRCS (great branching but lacks network capability). Of particular interest are also Darcs and Monotone, but this is another story :) Sam -- Samuel Tardieu -- sam@rfc1149.net -- http://www.rfc1149.net/sam ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-10-06 20:08 ` Samuel Tardieu @ 2004-10-08 0:36 ` Brian May 0 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Brian May @ 2004-10-08 0:36 UTC (permalink / raw) >>>>> "Samuel" == Samuel Tardieu <sam@rfc1149.net> writes: Samuel> This is *very* scalable. The learning curve is quite Samuel> important, but once you get used to it, you get a Samuel> productivity never encountered with tools like CVS, Samuel> Subversion, PRCS (great branching but lacks network Samuel> capability). Thanks for your excellent summary. Samuel> Of particular interest are also Darcs and Monotone, but Samuel> this is another story :) I have never used these. There are come comparisons between different tools (CVS included) at the top of: <URL:http://wiki.gnuarch.org/> -- Brian May <bam@snoopy.apana.org.au> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-24 0:35 ` Stephen Leake 2004-09-24 3:38 ` Randy Brukardt 2004-09-24 5:45 ` Fionn mac Cuimhaill @ 2004-09-24 18:58 ` Pascal Obry 2004-09-24 20:14 ` Marius Amado Alves 2004-10-03 16:18 ` David Botton 2004-10-03 16:03 ` David Botton 3 siblings, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Pascal Obry @ 2004-09-24 18:58 UTC (permalink / raw) Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@acm.org> writes: > I'm considering giving up on GtkAda for Windows development, and Well that's not the moment to give up :) Gtk+ on Windows is maturing quickly and the 2.4.7 version is quite better than previous ones. Note also that the Gtk+Wimp (Native Windows look&feel) is now part of the Gtk+ project. Will this makes you stay on the GtkAda side ? What I like in Ada is that the very same program can be compiled and run on different OS. So GtkAda seems very important to me! Pascal. -- --|------------------------------------------------------ --| Pascal Obry Team-Ada Member --| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE --|------------------------------------------------------ --| http://www.obry.org --| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination" --| --| gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.pgp.net --recv-key C1082595 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-24 18:58 ` Pascal Obry @ 2004-09-24 20:14 ` Marius Amado Alves 2004-09-24 20:48 ` tmoran ` (4 more replies) 2004-10-03 16:18 ` David Botton 1 sibling, 5 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Marius Amado Alves @ 2004-09-24 20:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: comp.lang.ada > What I like in Ada is that the very same program can be compiled and run on > different OS. It seems I always do web systems these days I don't need a GUI library much. But sometimes I do. Last time I used JEWL. Please guide me here. I seem to remember GtkAda as a binding to a C++ library and have way too much unecessary stuff like string functions, an interpreter, all that Tcl bagage. In the landscape I see also Glade, GWindows, Claw, Windex. The different OSes of GtkAda are just Linux and Windows right? GNAT has a lot more. Isn't there a GNAT-related GUI library? Glade? I've sensed the same sort of doubts in others people and even in other fora. Maybe we could build a feature table of GUI libraries for Ada to help people chose, if that is not too politically incorrect. I'll kick off with what I seem to know, please correct and add. Library Level Sublang License OSes Other features ------------------------------------------------------------ Claw Full Glade High free GtkAda Full C++ free Win,Linux GWindows free JEWL High free Win Windex Win32 Low free Win ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks a lot. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-24 20:14 ` Marius Amado Alves @ 2004-09-24 20:48 ` tmoran 2004-09-24 22:22 ` Georg Bauhaus ` (3 subsequent siblings) 4 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: tmoran @ 2004-09-24 20:48 UTC (permalink / raw) > Library Level Sublang License OSes Other features How about adding a column "Support". ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-24 20:14 ` Marius Amado Alves 2004-09-24 20:48 ` tmoran @ 2004-09-24 22:22 ` Georg Bauhaus 2004-09-25 2:34 ` Jeff C r e e.m ` (2 subsequent siblings) 4 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Georg Bauhaus @ 2004-09-24 22:22 UTC (permalink / raw) Marius Amado Alves <amado.alves@netcabo.pt> wrote: : GtkAda Full C++ free Win,Linux A Lot C ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-24 20:14 ` Marius Amado Alves 2004-09-24 20:48 ` tmoran 2004-09-24 22:22 ` Georg Bauhaus @ 2004-09-25 2:34 ` Jeff C r e e.m 2004-09-25 6:03 ` Pascal Obry 2004-09-25 11:46 ` Ludovic Brenta 4 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Jeff C r e e.m @ 2004-09-25 2:34 UTC (permalink / raw) "Marius Amado Alves" <amado.alves@netcabo.pt> wrote in message news:mailman.91.1096057029.390.comp.lang.ada@ada-france.org... >> What I like in Ada is that the very same program can be compiled and run >> on >> different OS. > > It seems I always do web systems these days I don't need a GUI library > much. But sometimes I do. Last time I used JEWL. Please guide me here. I > seem to remember GtkAda as a binding to a C++ library and have way too > much unecessary stuff like string functions, an interpreter, all that Tcl > bagage. In the landscape I see also Glade, GWindows, Claw, Windex. Gtk and GtkAda have nothing at all to do with Tcl/Tk. There is no interpreter. There is no C++. There is however some "extra" stuff like string libraries... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-24 20:14 ` Marius Amado Alves ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2004-09-25 2:34 ` Jeff C r e e.m @ 2004-09-25 6:03 ` Pascal Obry 2004-09-25 10:42 ` Marius Amado Alves [not found] ` <41554B8F.6040401@netcabo.pt> 2004-09-25 11:46 ` Ludovic Brenta 4 siblings, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Pascal Obry @ 2004-09-25 6:03 UTC (permalink / raw) Marius Amado Alves <amado.alves@netcabo.pt> writes: > different OSes of GtkAda are just Linux and Windows right? GNAT has a lot No it is also ported to Mac OS-X. > more. Isn't there a GNAT-related GUI library? Glade? No GLADE is the GUI builder that generates GtkAda code. > I've sensed the same sort of doubts in others people and even in other > fora. Maybe we could build a feature table of GUI libraries for Ada to help > people chose, if that is not too politically incorrect. I'll kick off with > what I seem to know, please correct and add. > > Library Level Sublang License OSes Other features > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Claw Full > Glade High free > GtkAda Full C++ free Win,Linux C + MacOS-x supported > GWindows free > JEWL High free Win > Windex > Win32 Low free Win > ------------------------------------------------------------ Pascal. -- --|------------------------------------------------------ --| Pascal Obry Team-Ada Member --| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE --|------------------------------------------------------ --| http://www.obry.org --| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination" --| --| gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.pgp.net --recv-key C1082595 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-25 6:03 ` Pascal Obry @ 2004-09-25 10:42 ` Marius Amado Alves 2004-09-25 11:38 ` Georg Bauhaus 2004-09-25 13:11 ` Ed Falis [not found] ` <41554B8F.6040401@netcabo.pt> 1 sibling, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Marius Amado Alves @ 2004-09-25 10:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: comp.lang.ada I've collected what we have so far. I dropped the Level field, it was too hard to define. Binding renames Sublang. Added Install, Support, Remarks. GUI libraries for Ada comparate (C) Guys de Cla Library Binding License OSes Install Support Remarks ------------------------------------------------------------- Claw W Glade free (a) GtkAda C free L,M,W GWindows free JEWL free W easy Windex Win32 free W ------------------------------------------------------------- (a) visual tool for GtkAda Binding: Programming language X, if the library is a binding to a library in X. OSes: L = Linux M = MacOS W = Windows Install: easy = installs out of the box hard = requires a guru Support: free = dedicated volunteer structure e.g. a maillist (not CLA) com = commercial support no = no support (but of course CLA continues to exist) Append "/doc" if documentation exists (free) * Related threads in comp.lang.ada * GWindows and David Botton GTK ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-25 10:42 ` Marius Amado Alves @ 2004-09-25 11:38 ` Georg Bauhaus 2004-09-25 13:11 ` Ed Falis 1 sibling, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Georg Bauhaus @ 2004-09-25 11:38 UTC (permalink / raw) Marius Amado Alves <amado.alves@netcabo.pt> wrote: : I've collected what we have so far. I dropped the Level field, it was : too hard to define. Binding renames Sublang. Added Install, Support, : Remarks. : : GUI libraries for Ada comparate : (C) Guys de Cla : : Library Binding License OSes Install Support Remarks : ------------------------------------------------------------- : Claw free/com W ?/com see http://www.rrsoftware.com/html/prodinf/tips.html#claw_faqs The web pages also point you to doc. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-25 10:42 ` Marius Amado Alves 2004-09-25 11:38 ` Georg Bauhaus @ 2004-09-25 13:11 ` Ed Falis 2004-09-25 15:59 ` Jacob Sparre Andersen 1 sibling, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread From: Ed Falis @ 2004-09-25 13:11 UTC (permalink / raw) I've used GTKAda on Solaris, too, and imagine it will work whereever you have GTK+ and GNAT. - Ed ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-25 13:11 ` Ed Falis @ 2004-09-25 15:59 ` Jacob Sparre Andersen 2004-09-25 18:15 ` Ed Falis 0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread From: Jacob Sparre Andersen @ 2004-09-25 15:59 UTC (permalink / raw) Ed Falis wrote: > I've used GTKAda on Solaris, too, and imagine it will work whereever > you have GTK+ and GNAT. Which AFAIK means practically any Unix running X as a graphics system. Jacob -- No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-25 15:59 ` Jacob Sparre Andersen @ 2004-09-25 18:15 ` Ed Falis 0 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Ed Falis @ 2004-09-25 18:15 UTC (permalink / raw) On 25 Sep 2004 17:59:28 +0200, Jacob Sparre Andersen <sparre@nbi.dk> wrote: > Which AFAIK means practically any Unix running X as a graphics system. That's what I assume. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
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* Re: GWindows and David Botton [not found] ` <41554B8F.6040401@netcabo.pt> @ 2004-09-25 12:49 ` Stephen Leake [not found] ` <uekkqfr96.fsf@acm.org> 1 sibling, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2004-09-25 12:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: comp.lang.ada Marius Amado Alves <amado.alves@netcabo.pt> writes: > I've collected what we have so far. I dropped the Level field, it was > too hard to define. Binding renames Sublang. Added Install, Support, > Remarks. This needs to be on a web page, but I'll provide what I know about Windex. Binding: Win32 API (C) License: GMGPL OSes: Windows 95 .. XP Install: tar.gz source Support: occasional email -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
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* Re: GWindows and David Botton [not found] ` <uekkqfr96.fsf@acm.org> @ 2004-09-25 13:05 ` Marius Amado Alves 0 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Marius Amado Alves @ 2004-09-25 13:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: comp.lang.ada Update. GUI libraries for Ada comparate (C) Guys de Cla Library Binding License OSes Install Support Remarks ------------------------------------------------------------- AdaBindX C free B,L (b) Claw W Glade free (a) GtkAda C free B,L,M,W GWindows free JEWL free W easy TASH Tcl/Tk free B,W,L Windex GMGPL W free Win32 free W ------------------------------------------------------------- (a) visual tool for GtkAda (b) other features: Xlib, Xt, Xm (motif/lesstif) Binding: Programming language X, if the library is a binding to a library in X. OSes: B = BSD L = Linux M = MacOS W = Windows Install: easy = installs out of the box hard = requires a guru Support: free = dedicated volunteer structure e.g. a maillist (not CLA) com = commercial support no = no support (but of course CLA continues to exist) Append "/doc" if documentation exists (free) * Threads in comp.lang.ada * GTK GWindows and David Botton ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-24 20:14 ` Marius Amado Alves ` (3 preceding siblings ...) 2004-09-25 6:03 ` Pascal Obry @ 2004-09-25 11:46 ` Ludovic Brenta 4 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: Ludovic Brenta @ 2004-09-25 11:46 UTC (permalink / raw) Library Level Sublang License OSes Other features ------------------------------------------------------------ + AdaBindX Low C free Linux,*BSD Xlib, Xt, Xm (motif/lesstif) Claw Full Glade High free - GtkAda Full C++ free Win,Linux + GtkAda Full C free Win,Linux,*BSD,MacOS X GWindows free JEWL High free Win + TASH High Tcl/Tk free Win,Linux,*BSD interpreted Windex Win32 Low free Win ------------------------------------------------------------ I'm not sure what you mean by "level". I suggest to split it into two columns: one "level of language" to distinguish between thin and thick bindings, and one "completeness" that gives an indication about the features available. For example, JEWL is high-level but no very rich, whereas AdaBindX is low-level but feature-rich. -- Ludovic Brenta. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-24 18:58 ` Pascal Obry 2004-09-24 20:14 ` Marius Amado Alves @ 2004-10-03 16:18 ` David Botton 1 sibling, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: David Botton @ 2004-10-03 16:18 UTC (permalink / raw) Gtk may partialy look like windows, but it hardly will ever feel like windows now or in the future (do note that using GWindows you could actually lift GtkAda up to feel like windows, really look like windows and even offer ActiveX and .NET support to boot). I believe there is some sample code in GWindows for placing an ActiveX control on a GtkAda window. That technique and better ones exist for GtkAda integration with GWindows. A Rapid like approach that uses GtkAda for Linux and GWindows for Windows on its backend would be the better approach to acheive your goals. GtkAda could in theory become the Rapid like approach itself as well if it could shift a bit away from Gtk on Windows. David Botton On 2004-09-24 14:58:15 -0400, Pascal Obry <obry@act-europe.fr> said: > > Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@acm.org> writes: > >> I'm considering giving up on GtkAda for Windows development, and > > Well that's not the moment to give up :) Gtk+ on Windows is maturing quickly > and the 2.4.7 version is quite better than previous ones. Note also that the > Gtk+Wimp (Native Windows look&feel) is now part of the Gtk+ project. > > Will this makes you stay on the GtkAda side ? > > What I like in Ada is that the very same program can be compiled and run on > different OS. So GtkAda seems very important to me! > > Pascal. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: GWindows and David Botton 2004-09-24 0:35 ` Stephen Leake ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2004-09-24 18:58 ` Pascal Obry @ 2004-10-03 16:03 ` David Botton 3 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread From: David Botton @ 2004-10-03 16:03 UTC (permalink / raw) Much agreed. Windex has better support if I recall for working with bitmaps. The ease of use of GWindows (multiple event models, etc) combined with some of the areas you fleshed out better in Windex would be an awsome package. David Botton On 2004-09-23 20:35:20 -0400, Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@acm.org> said: > > I'm considering giving up on GtkAda for Windows development, and > resurrecting Windex (long story, for another thread :). But I would > consider joining an open Gwindows project, instead. I always thought > Windex and Gwindows should be merged. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2004-10-19 2:48 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 97+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2004-09-28 6:39 GWindows and David Botton Robert C. Leif 2004-09-28 6:56 ` tmoran [not found] <uoejghjq3.fsf@acm.org> 2004-10-06 4:19 ` Alexander E. Kopilovich 2004-10-06 4:39 ` David Botton -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below -- 2004-09-23 1:44 Fionn mac Cuimhaill 2004-09-23 2:51 ` stephane richard 2004-09-24 1:08 ` Stephen Leake 2004-09-24 1:14 ` stephane richard 2004-09-24 16:26 ` Matthew Heaney 2004-09-25 12:19 ` Stephen Leake 2004-09-26 13:22 ` Craig Carey 2004-09-24 0:35 ` Stephen Leake 2004-09-24 3:38 ` Randy Brukardt 2004-09-24 5:41 ` Martin Dowie 2004-09-24 10:37 ` stephane richard 2004-09-25 12:06 ` Stephen Leake 2004-09-27 20:59 ` Randy Brukardt 2004-09-28 17:47 ` Pascal Obry 2004-09-28 18:25 ` stephane richard 2004-10-03 17:04 ` David Botton 2004-10-03 16:32 ` David Botton 2004-10-03 17:59 ` Marius Amado Alves 2004-10-03 19:32 ` Ludovic Brenta 2004-10-03 20:21 ` Jerry van Dijk 2004-10-04 19:13 ` tmoran 2004-10-05 0:54 ` David Botton 2004-10-05 1:23 ` David Botton 2004-10-05 1:27 ` Stephen Leake 2004-10-05 3:39 ` David Botton 2004-10-05 23:20 ` Randy Brukardt 2004-10-03 19:24 ` Jerry van Dijk 2004-10-04 2:06 ` Stephen Leake 2004-10-04 13:23 ` David Botton 2004-10-04 13:43 ` David Botton 2004-09-24 17:00 ` Cesar Rabak 2004-09-24 5:45 ` Fionn mac Cuimhaill 2004-09-25 12:01 ` Stephen Leake 2004-09-26 16:21 ` Fionn mac Cuimhaill 2004-10-03 16:37 ` David Botton 2004-09-26 21:57 ` Stephen McNeill 2004-09-26 22:08 ` tmoran 2004-09-27 6:13 ` Fionn mac Cuimhaill 2004-09-27 12:31 ` Georg Bauhaus 2004-09-27 21:23 ` Stephen McNeill 2004-10-03 16:40 ` David Botton 2004-10-04 1:57 ` Stephen Leake 2004-10-04 13:31 ` David Botton 2004-10-05 0:54 ` Stephen Leake 2004-10-05 15:39 ` David Botton 2004-10-05 19:44 ` tmoran 2004-10-05 21:33 ` David Botton 2004-10-05 22:13 ` stephane richard 2004-10-06 21:17 ` tmoran 2004-10-05 22:40 ` Stephen Leake 2004-10-05 23:28 ` Randy Brukardt 2004-10-06 3:50 ` David Botton 2004-10-06 3:46 ` David Botton [not found] ` <ullenfdo8.fsf@acm.org> 2004-10-04 12:46 ` Stephen Leake 2004-10-04 23:13 ` Brian May 2004-10-04 23:45 ` stephane richard 2004-10-05 17:52 ` Ludovic Brenta 2004-10-05 18:08 ` Chris Humphries 2004-10-05 18:24 ` Ludovic Brenta 2004-10-05 19:07 ` Pascal Obry 2004-10-05 22:43 ` Stephen Leake 2004-10-07 18:49 ` Ludovic Brenta 2004-10-16 2:36 ` Benjamin Ketcham 2004-10-19 2:48 ` Kaz Kylheku 2004-10-05 0:48 ` Stephen Leake 2004-10-05 7:42 ` Brian May 2004-10-05 22:16 ` Stephen Leake 2004-10-06 8:48 ` Pascal Obry 2004-10-06 18:56 ` Marius Amado Alves 2004-10-06 20:07 ` David Botton 2004-10-06 20:18 ` David Botton 2004-10-06 21:25 ` tmoran 2004-10-09 9:49 ` Jerry van Dijk 2004-10-07 0:22 ` Stephen Leake 2004-10-08 0:28 ` Brian May 2004-10-06 20:08 ` Samuel Tardieu 2004-10-08 0:36 ` Brian May 2004-09-24 18:58 ` Pascal Obry 2004-09-24 20:14 ` Marius Amado Alves 2004-09-24 20:48 ` tmoran 2004-09-24 22:22 ` Georg Bauhaus 2004-09-25 2:34 ` Jeff C r e e.m 2004-09-25 6:03 ` Pascal Obry 2004-09-25 10:42 ` Marius Amado Alves 2004-09-25 11:38 ` Georg Bauhaus 2004-09-25 13:11 ` Ed Falis 2004-09-25 15:59 ` Jacob Sparre Andersen 2004-09-25 18:15 ` Ed Falis [not found] ` <41554B8F.6040401@netcabo.pt> 2004-09-25 12:49 ` Stephen Leake [not found] ` <uekkqfr96.fsf@acm.org> 2004-09-25 13:05 ` Marius Amado Alves 2004-09-25 11:46 ` Ludovic Brenta 2004-10-03 16:18 ` David Botton 2004-10-03 16:03 ` David Botton
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