From: Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen <ole-hjalmar.kristensen@substitute_employer_here.com>
Subject: Re: ADA Popularity Discussion Request
Date: 01 Sep 2004 09:21:04 +0200
Date: 2004-09-01T07:21:05+00:00 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <wvbracwalajj.fsf@sun.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: mailman.22.1093975194.31213.comp.lang.ada@ada-france.org
>>>>> "LD" == Lionel DRAGHI <Lionel.DRAGHI@fr.thalesgroup.com> writes:
LD> | -----Message d'origine-----
LD> | De: kevin.cline@gmail.com [mailto:kevin.cline@gmail.com]
LD> ...
LD> |
LD> | The efficacy of much pre-code activity is debatable. Many
LD> | organizations have had great success with more agile methods of
LD> | minimal up-front design followed by test-driven development and
LD> | continuous refactoring.
LD> Test-driven development includes a part of "pre-code activities". In fact,
LD> test-driven development is an odd name, because it's as much about design
LD> than about test.
LD> As you said, even wit agile methods, there is still an up-front design to
LD> do.
LD> Refactoring may let's people thinks that starting almost without design is
LD> less risky with Agile methods, but that's plain wrong.
LD> No one can afford periodically refactoring the whole project because of a
LD> poor architecture.
LD> Settling down the initial design requires experienced and smart guys,
LD> whatever is the method.
Yes, I agree. However maybe there is less resistance to doing
restructuring of the system when it is needed with agile methods? This
could be a good thing, in many large projects you tend to get stuck
with the initial design when the system evolves. Sometimes you would
be better off with a major redesign, but it is often put off.
On the other hand, I cannot really see how test-driven development and
continuous refactoring would work on a 2 million LOC soft real time
distributed RDBMS. Usually, there just isn't a substitute for good design.
LD> So, I don't think there is less time on design and more time on coding in
LD> agile methods. The time is just distributed in a different way.
LD> --
LD> Lionel Draghi
--
C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2004-09-01 7:21 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 387+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2004-08-31 17:58 ADA Popularity Discussion Request Lionel.DRAGHI
2004-09-01 7:21 ` Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen [this message]
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2004-09-01 12:18 Lionel.DRAGHI
2004-08-26 2:08 Robert C. Leif
2004-08-11 13:56 Chris Humphries
2004-08-11 14:14 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-08-11 15:39 ` sk
2004-08-11 15:54 ` Marc A. Criley
2004-08-12 4:54 ` Larry Kilgallen
2004-08-13 2:29 ` Brian May
2004-08-13 5:27 ` Ada " Puckdropper
2004-08-21 3:41 ` ADA " Wes Groleau
2004-08-26 21:11 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2004-08-27 10:30 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-08-31 16:34 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2004-08-31 17:48 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-01 16:58 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2004-09-10 23:12 ` Kevin Cline
2004-09-12 16:50 ` jayessay
2004-08-11 15:45 ` Jerry Petrey
2004-08-11 15:55 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-08-11 16:54 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-08-11 17:14 ` Nick Roberts
2004-08-11 18:00 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-08-12 11:48 ` Marin David Condic
2004-08-26 8:07 ` Adrian Hoe
2004-08-26 11:52 ` Marin David Condic
2004-08-27 8:10 ` Adrian Hoe
2004-08-27 14:37 ` Ed Falis
2004-08-27 17:52 ` Richard Riehle
2004-08-27 18:20 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-08-27 22:45 ` Wes Groleau
2004-09-03 6:48 ` Adrian Hoe
2004-09-03 12:14 ` stephane richard
2004-09-03 17:33 ` Björn Persson
2004-08-11 18:58 ` fabio de francesco
2004-08-12 0:05 ` Larry Elmore
2004-08-12 12:29 ` Adam Ruth
2004-08-13 6:55 ` Wojtek Narczynski
2004-08-12 22:41 ` Richard Riehle
2004-08-12 23:20 ` Ed Falis
2004-08-13 0:37 ` Nick Roberts
2004-08-13 1:22 ` Ed Falis
2004-08-13 7:01 ` Richard Riehle
2004-08-13 2:55 ` Matt Morgan
2004-08-14 7:26 ` j
[not found] ` <fvavh0lmv0644gn5dt45sbj574t3ivqhlt@4ax.com>
2004-08-15 21:26 ` Nick Roberts
2004-08-16 1:02 ` Richard Riehle
2004-08-16 21:09 ` Keith H Duggar
2004-08-16 22:24 ` Ludovic Brenta
2004-08-16 22:30 ` Ed Falis
2004-08-17 6:13 ` Keith H Duggar
2004-08-17 20:13 ` Ludovic Brenta
2004-08-16 22:26 ` Ed Falis
2004-08-17 6:28 ` Keith H Duggar
2004-08-17 13:30 ` Ed Falis
2004-08-17 13:38 ` Martin Dowie
2004-08-18 3:30 ` Dale Stanbrough
2004-08-17 7:50 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
[not found] ` <mfb4i09d5kqk8fjdfmrj62kgmooftf1ma8@4ax.com>
2004-08-18 8:58 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-08-26 5:22 ` Dave Thompson
2004-08-26 8:06 ` Dale Stanbrough
2004-08-26 13:37 ` Martin Krischik
2004-08-26 8:14 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-08-26 17:28 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-08-17 10:58 ` Marin David Condic
2004-08-17 11:33 ` Martin Dowie
2004-08-17 11:59 ` Marin David Condic
2004-08-17 12:49 ` Martin Dowie
2004-08-17 13:07 ` Marin David Condic
2004-08-19 14:53 ` Martin Dowie
2004-08-17 12:33 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-08-17 12:54 ` Marin David Condic
2004-08-26 1:27 ` Randy Brukardt
2004-08-26 11:49 ` Marin David Condic
2004-08-17 12:58 ` Martin Dowie
2004-08-17 13:06 ` Martin Dowie
2004-08-17 23:54 ` Kevin Cline
2004-08-18 0:30 ` Richard Riehle
2004-08-18 1:29 ` Björn Persson
2004-08-20 16:39 ` Kevin Cline
2004-08-20 17:41 ` Richard Riehle
2004-08-21 23:23 ` fabio de francesco
2004-08-22 7:16 ` fabio de francesco
2004-08-22 9:44 ` Richard Riehle
2004-08-23 0:18 ` fabio de francesco
2004-08-23 3:44 ` Wes Groleau
2004-08-26 21:36 ` Kevin Cline
2004-08-27 11:39 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-08-29 15:08 ` jayessay
2004-08-30 19:59 ` Kevin Cline
2004-09-02 14:26 ` jayessay
2004-08-30 20:21 ` Kevin Cline
2004-08-23 15:23 ` Richard Riehle
2004-08-26 21:08 ` Kevin Cline
2004-08-27 5:23 ` Wes Groleau
2004-08-27 17:29 ` Kevin Cline
2004-08-27 22:50 ` Wes Groleau
2004-08-27 11:45 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-08-27 18:22 ` Kevin Cline
2004-08-27 19:14 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-08-28 14:17 ` Kevin Cline
2004-08-28 18:07 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-08-29 16:14 ` jayessay
2004-08-30 17:30 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-08-27 21:42 ` Kevin Cline
2004-08-29 6:22 ` Martin Krischik
2004-08-31 7:25 ` Kevin Cline
2004-08-31 9:37 ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2004-08-31 10:54 ` Martin Dowie
2004-08-31 12:42 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-08-31 13:22 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-08-31 16:02 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-08-31 17:29 ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2004-08-31 20:17 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-09-01 7:08 ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2004-09-01 12:25 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-01 14:27 ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2004-09-01 20:21 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-02 7:59 ` Martin Krischik
2004-09-02 13:33 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-09-02 14:38 ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2004-09-02 15:33 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-09-02 16:32 ` Martin Krischik
2004-09-02 18:50 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-08-31 9:57 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-08-31 11:51 ` Martin Krischik
2004-09-02 19:10 ` Simon Wright
2004-09-12 11:02 ` Anders Gidenstam
2004-09-12 13:47 ` Simon Wright
2004-09-12 15:20 ` Anders Gidenstam
2004-09-12 16:36 ` Simon Wright
2004-09-12 18:33 ` Anders Gidenstam
2004-08-29 15:13 ` jayessay
2004-08-29 16:34 ` Richard Riehle
2004-08-23 17:27 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-08-23 18:59 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-08-24 7:07 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-08-23 22:20 ` Richard Riehle
2004-08-24 7:07 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-08-26 21:22 ` Kevin Cline
2004-08-26 20:32 ` Kevin Cline
2004-08-27 11:53 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-08-27 21:48 ` Kevin Cline
2004-08-28 5:02 ` Richard Riehle
2004-08-30 19:16 ` Kevin Cline
2004-08-31 12:16 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-03 15:25 ` Kevin Cline
2004-09-03 18:51 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-05 3:59 ` Kevin Cline
2004-08-28 10:20 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-08-28 10:30 ` Adrian Knoth
2004-08-28 11:23 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-08-28 12:28 ` Ludovic Brenta
2004-08-28 16:45 ` Richard Riehle
2004-08-29 15:57 ` jayessay
2004-08-29 16:47 ` Richard Riehle
2004-09-03 16:43 ` jayessay
2004-09-05 4:36 ` Kevin Cline
2004-09-05 16:13 ` Richard Riehle
2004-09-05 17:28 ` Jean-Marc Bourguet
2004-09-06 16:45 ` jayessay
2004-09-06 17:15 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-07 15:13 ` jayessay
2004-09-07 15:57 ` jayessay
2004-09-07 15:57 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-07 18:20 ` jayessay
2004-09-08 10:40 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-08 19:46 ` jayessay
2004-09-09 1:47 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-10 1:01 ` jayessay
2004-09-10 9:28 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-12 15:59 ` jayessay
2004-09-13 13:19 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-09 5:38 ` Chad R. Meiners
2004-09-10 1:04 ` jayessay
2004-09-10 21:51 ` Chad R. Meiners
2004-09-06 18:47 ` Jean-Marc Bourguet
2004-09-07 15:22 ` jayessay
2004-09-07 15:37 ` Jean-Marc Bourguet
2004-09-07 17:01 ` jayessay
2004-09-07 17:56 ` Jean-Marc Bourguet
2004-09-07 18:29 ` jayessay
2004-09-07 19:03 ` Jean-Marc Bourguet
2004-09-07 21:12 ` jayessay
2004-09-08 8:12 ` Jean-Marc Bourguet
2004-09-07 15:58 ` jayessay
2004-09-07 22:34 ` Björn Persson
2004-09-08 16:28 ` jayessay
2004-09-08 23:28 ` Randy Brukardt
2004-09-05 21:01 ` Jeffrey Carter
2004-09-06 2:17 ` stephane richard
2004-09-06 21:12 ` jayessay
2004-09-07 8:23 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-09-07 15:25 ` jayessay
2004-09-05 18:28 ` Larry Kilgallen
[not found] ` <e749549b.0409042036.5d4822a2@posting.googlOrganization: LJK Software <vpblkhspuA9F@eisner.encompasserve.org>
2004-09-05 22:49 ` Kevin Cline
2004-09-06 16:39 ` jayessay
2004-09-07 22:01 ` Lionel Draghi
2004-09-08 8:52 ` Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen
2004-09-08 10:20 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-08 12:01 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-09-08 16:26 ` jayessay
2004-09-08 19:12 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-09-08 21:02 ` Björn Persson
2004-09-08 23:31 ` jayessay
2004-09-09 16:00 ` Björn Persson
2004-09-08 23:02 ` Alexander E. Kopilovich
2004-09-08 23:23 ` jayessay
2004-09-09 9:12 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-09-10 1:16 ` jayessay
2004-09-10 15:06 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-09-08 21:17 ` Lionel Draghi
2004-09-10 0:47 ` jayessay
2004-09-10 17:40 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-09-12 16:02 ` jayessay
2004-09-08 19:46 ` Alexander E. Kopilovich
2004-09-09 7:57 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-09-10 0:53 ` jayessay
2004-09-11 19:52 ` Alexander E. Kopilovich
2004-09-12 16:36 ` jayessay
2004-09-08 16:08 ` jayessay
2004-09-08 17:29 ` Richard Riehle
2004-09-08 23:01 ` jayessay
2004-09-09 1:08 ` Kevin Cline
2004-09-09 1:35 ` Ed Falis
2004-09-09 20:11 ` Lionel Draghi
2004-09-11 0:04 ` Kevin Cline
2004-09-11 1:10 ` Ed Falis
2004-09-12 16:20 ` jayessay
2004-09-12 23:25 ` Lionel Draghi
2004-09-13 10:13 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-13 21:29 ` jayessay
2004-09-14 9:15 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-15 2:15 ` Alexander E. Kopilovich
2004-09-09 3:01 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-10 23:56 ` Kevin Cline
2004-09-11 9:50 ` Martin Krischik
2004-09-11 18:09 ` Benjamin Ketcham
2004-09-11 18:33 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-12 6:00 ` Benjamin Ketcham
2004-09-12 17:45 ` Martin Krischik
2004-09-12 17:41 ` Martin Krischik
2004-09-13 0:30 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-09-13 6:06 ` Kevin Cline
2004-09-12 0:51 ` Larry Kilgallen
2004-09-12 6:05 ` Benjamin Ketcham
2004-09-12 7:52 ` Pascal Obry
2004-09-12 17:17 ` Marius Amado Alves
2004-09-12 13:02 ` Larry Kilgallen
2004-09-12 19:05 ` Alexander E. Kopilovich
[not found] ` <zi1oZiVz9I4A@eisner.encoOrganization: LJK Software <UHjU2NulgeUs@eisner.encompasserve.org>
2004-09-12 21:21 ` Marin David Condic
2004-09-13 7:42 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-09-15 20:45 ` Marin David Condic
2004-09-16 8:03 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-09-16 18:45 ` Pascal Obry
2004-09-17 7:29 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-09-13 0:48 ` Larry Kilgallen
2004-09-13 14:25 ` Marius Amado Alves
2004-09-13 5:56 ` Kevin Cline
2004-09-13 11:49 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-13 13:30 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-09-14 17:14 ` Kevin Cline
2004-09-14 17:29 ` Kevin Cline
2004-09-13 14:58 ` Larry Kilgallen
2004-09-13 16:01 ` Marius Amado Alves
[not found] ` <mailman.16.1095009448.390.comp.lang.ada@ada-france.Organization: LJK Software <7+giGppWCdX3@eisner.encompasserve.org>
2004-09-14 20:17 ` David Gay
2004-09-11 9:59 ` Pascal Obry
2004-09-12 5:32 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-09-12 7:19 ` Pascal Obry
2004-09-13 0:43 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-09-13 16:40 ` Pascal Obry
2004-09-13 21:19 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-09-13 21:36 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-09-14 17:27 ` Pascal Obry
2004-09-12 7:50 ` Pascal Obry
2004-09-12 23:59 ` Brian May
2004-09-13 0:45 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-09-13 6:19 ` Dale Stanbrough
2004-09-13 7:50 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-09-13 13:35 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-09-13 15:39 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-09-13 15:51 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-09-14 8:32 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-09-14 9:07 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-14 14:04 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-09-14 15:57 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-15 8:29 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-09-15 9:30 ` Martin Dowie
2004-09-15 10:05 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-09-15 10:14 ` Martin Krischik
2004-09-15 12:50 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-09-16 4:29 ` Kevin Cline
2004-09-16 7:38 ` Martin Krischik
2004-09-16 18:45 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-17 5:58 ` Martin Krischik
2004-09-18 16:44 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-19 11:22 ` Simon Wright
2004-09-19 12:22 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-19 18:04 ` Simon Wright
2004-09-20 7:36 ` Martin Krischik
2004-09-20 20:41 ` Randy Brukardt
2004-09-21 8:11 ` Martin Krischik
2004-09-22 20:51 ` Simon Wright
2004-09-16 8:01 ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2004-09-14 20:35 ` Pascal Obry
2004-09-15 8:29 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-09-16 18:43 ` Pascal Obry
2004-09-14 16:28 ` Kevin Cline
2004-09-11 11:44 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-14 16:50 ` Kevin Cline
2004-09-14 17:32 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-09 19:58 ` Lionel Draghi
2004-09-11 0:07 ` Kevin Cline
2004-09-11 12:06 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-12 16:33 ` jayessay
2004-09-13 12:43 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-13 6:58 ` Kevin Cline
2004-09-13 13:06 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-12 16:30 ` jayessay
2004-09-12 22:55 ` Lionel Draghi
2004-09-12 23:08 ` Lionel Draghi
2004-09-13 2:37 ` John B. Matthews
2004-09-13 21:28 ` jayessay
2004-09-13 13:08 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-09 0:13 ` Randy Brukardt
2004-09-11 0:23 ` Kevin Cline
2004-09-14 0:17 ` Randy Brukardt
2004-09-12 16:22 ` jayessay
2004-09-14 0:49 ` Randy Brukardt
2004-09-14 14:28 ` jayessay
2004-09-06 21:01 ` Stephen Leake
2004-09-13 6:23 ` Kevin Cline
2004-09-07 2:16 ` Richard Riehle
2004-09-07 3:57 ` Benjamin Ketcham
2004-09-07 16:42 ` Richard Riehle
2004-09-07 20:51 ` jayessay
2004-09-07 22:21 ` Mark Lorenzen
2004-09-08 5:26 ` Richard Riehle
2004-09-08 6:56 ` Mark Lorenzen
2004-09-08 15:56 ` jayessay
2004-09-08 15:36 ` jayessay
2004-09-08 15:37 ` Jean-Marc Bourguet
2004-09-08 10:29 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-08 16:04 ` jayessay
2004-09-09 2:52 ` Kevin Cline
2004-09-07 7:46 ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2004-09-14 20:14 ` Kevin Cline
2004-09-20 21:45 ` Lurker
2004-09-07 22:37 ` Lionel Draghi
2004-09-06 7:49 ` Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen
2004-09-06 16:36 ` jayessay
2004-09-06 17:32 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-07 13:48 ` jayessay
2004-09-07 15:13 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-07 15:54 ` jayessay
2004-09-08 12:33 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-08 13:17 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-09-09 1:02 ` Randy Brukardt
2004-09-09 9:15 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-09-07 22:18 ` Lionel Draghi
2004-08-28 14:45 ` User Name
2004-08-28 20:02 ` Alexander E. Kopilovich
2004-08-30 12:20 ` Jano
2004-08-20 19:50 ` Jeffrey Carter
2004-08-26 20:42 ` Kevin Cline
2004-08-27 1:22 ` Jeffrey Carter
2004-08-27 15:22 ` Kevin Cline
2004-08-27 16:26 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-08-30 19:08 ` Kevin Cline
2004-08-27 18:08 ` Jeffrey Carter
2004-08-28 14:05 ` Kevin Cline
2004-08-26 21:52 ` Kevin Cline
2004-08-20 17:53 ` Alexander E. Kopilovich
2004-08-21 1:34 ` Richard Riehle
2004-08-18 0:37 ` Jeffrey Carter
2004-08-18 1:53 ` Steve
2004-08-18 8:58 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-08-18 10:04 ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2004-08-18 17:55 ` Ludovic Brenta
2004-08-18 17:58 ` Ed Falis
2004-08-19 7:41 ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2004-08-19 14:36 ` Larry Kilgallen
2004-08-30 14:00 ` Jacob Sparre Andersen
2004-08-30 15:27 ` Martin Krischik
2004-08-25 18:26 ` John Kern
2004-08-18 10:32 ` Björn Persson
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